How many golf courses actually have heating and cooling systems for greens?

[Richard Hetzel]

I was reading about the course updates at Augusta National and read this:

"Hole No. 1: Back of tee reduced 7 yards to improve patron circulation between the tee and the practice putting green. Tee marker relocated and Masters scorecard changed from 455 yards to 445 yards. Green rebuilt for agronomic reasons and a heating and cooling system installed"

How many courses actually go to these lengths above? How many golf clubs can actually afford these types of high tech greens?

I continue to be amazed at the extensive changes they undertake each and every year between the events.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm pretty sure ANGC has them on all 18 greens.

And where is Barney when we need him.... I'm told his home course put them in years ago, at some fairly hefty expense, and now they are non-functional.

[henrye]

Not sure, but I thought Sawgrass put in a similar system.  It might be just the moisture control system, but others may know.

[Tom_Doak]

Quite a few modern courses have installed the Sub-Air system which was patented by the former superintendent at Augusta National ... Victoria National is one as mentioned, but Tom Fazio has spec'd it on a lot of his recent courses.  I would guess there are 30-40 courses in the US with it, and some overseas as well.

I do not know if that truly qualifies as a "cooling and heating system".  Augusta first put in a heating system under #12 green in 1981, because it gets frosty down there in the winter.  Riviera's sixth green has some kind of heating system (maybe Sub Air, I'm not sure) because it is in a shady pocket and the trees belong to the neighbor.

Sub Air is a very expensive proposition ... the full system has a pump buried in a vault next to each green, and you have to run power to each of them ... so the cost is over $500k.  I think some have gone to just having a portable pump they can take around to one green at a time, to cut the costs, but that wouldn't work so well where the goal is to cool down the greens on a hot summer day by blowing cool air through the drainage pipes underneath.

[Mark Smolens]

The renovation at Cog Hill #4 included the sub-air system.  Apparently the USGA felt that the greens got too soft during a summer rainstorm when the US Am. was held there.

[Anthony_Nysse]

A lot of golf courses have the Subair system. Sage valley has is underneath their greens. in fact, the owner liked it so much, he bought SubAir. Shadow Creek has it, we have it installed here, Northwood has it, Belfair, Bekeley Hall, Farm Links, TPC Sawgrass, to name a few. MOSTLY courses with bentgrass greens in a southern climate.
  We use it once or twice a week here during the summer months, especially after a rain events. We try to remove as must moisture as possible, help pulls salts through the soils profile, as well.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Joel_Stewart]

I think its quite a few more than 30-40 that Tom Doak is guessing.  Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe had it installed during their new construction.  The hope is that after thier winters is they can heat the greens and get them in shape to play maybe a month before the other courses.

[Ian Larson]

Riviera has the heating system in 5 and 6, which is a butt-load of 1/2" polypipe that runs heated water through it.

With all of their recent renovations they also put in the competitor to Sub-Air (Soil-Air?) in all 18 greens.

 I swear by Sub-Air. I think it is one of the best agronomic advances along with Primo, ever. I first started using Sub-Air back in the mid 90's when I was a turf student at Horry-Georgetown. I worked across the street at Wild Wing Plantation for Dave Downing and he worked with Marsh Benson from Augusta to get them in.

At the time Wild Wing was in the first batch of facilities to bring bentgrass that far south. Sub-Air was a key in keeping them alive in the hot and humid summers. After a long day of syringing we hooked them up to suck out all the water that was applied during the day to prevent pythium blight. Then during the day we reversed the motion of the impellor to blow colder air up through the profile to oxygenate and cool down the root system.

When I started work at LACC they had 2 portable units that were just sitting in the back of barn not being used and getting dusty. I couldnt believe it and I instantly started installing slice valves into the greens drainage mains.


They have portable units and permanent underground units. The permanents are where high costs occur from running electric. If a club can afford 1 or 2 $12,000 units it is well worth it. The only thing needed to retrofit a greens drainage system for Sub-Air is a Valterra slice valve which is installed inline at the exit points and one of those black rubber plumbing gaskets with the tightening bands (cant remember name).

I also use Sub-Air immediately after I flush greens with 4 hours of water. You wouldnt believe how much oxygen goes through the profile with a big power flush and a Sub-Air sucking immediately after. The roots start to look like hairy Ramen noodles.  



To answer the question....

ALOT of facilities are using these systems, all over the world. If anyone is interested I could give you Kevin Crowes number, who used to be Marsh's assistant at Augusta, he is now in charge of Sub-Air and is a very cool guy to talk to.

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

You are probably right that it's more than 30-40 ... the only ones I knew about though were Augusta, TPC at Sawgrass, and about twenty Fazio courses, which are all that have been mentioned thus far.  (And Colonial, which I didn't know about.)

Personally, I've always thought that if you really need Sub Air, you should probably be planting Bermuda greens instead of bent ... but that's just the frugal Scot in me.

[Ian Larson]

The purpose of Sub-Air is not geared towards helping bentgrass survive in hot climates, has nothing to do with grass type....


Its about sound agronomics and creating a good gas exchange in the root system. It doesnt matter if its bent or bermuda. If i had bermuda greens i would still use it. Good gas exchange (oxygen in - CO2 out) is vital for any living and breathing organism.

And when greens are waterlogged and not percolating at the speed they should all that extra water is clogging up all the macropores in the soil profile needed for the gas exchange. Without gas exchange you have anaerobic conditions, which is the precursor to black layer.



Its also more than golf courses hat are using these systems. Any major athletic field is using as well. Kevin Crowe is doing business with Sub-Air on every continent. Most recently he's been in Sweden and China.

I will give Fazio this, he's a very smart man for specing it on his courses.

[henrye]

Personally, I've always thought that if you really need Sub Air, you should probably be planting Bermuda greens instead of bent ... but that's just the frugal Scot in me.

Frugal Scot?  Sounds more like common sense.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

Sub Air may well be a great tool for a superintendent, on a course that can afford the system.  What exactly does it cost?

To say it has nothing to do with grass types is not quite correct ... since it was invented specifically to take care of the bent greens at Augusta National.

[Joel_Stewart]

I expect Pebble Beach and Cypress Point to install it after the 2010 US Open.

[Greg Chambers]

It's amazing grass ever survived without all these technologies.     I believe TPC Sugarloaf has the subaire system as well.

[Ian Larson]

Tom,


Ive used Sub-Air my entire career. And just last year while at LACC I had a couple phone conversations with Marsh Benson himself at Augusta National when I was retrofitting my greens so I could use the 2 portable Sub-Air units. Kevin Crowe also came in to help me design my "poorman's Sub-Air system".


If you talk to Marsh Benson, the inventor, he will tell you himself that; yes, he did come up with the concept for Augusta National. But he will then go on about how the concept is based off of sound agronomics for greens anywhere of any grass type. Its not about the grass, its about the soil supporting the grass.

So I will disagree with you. Grass type does not have anything to do with it. Sub-Air or any similar system will benefit ANY grass type. Because Marsh Benson invented it to remove excess water taking up macropore space, cool down canopy temps and oxygenate root systems.

A bermuda grass green is not artificial turf. It has a root system that needs oxygen, it accumulates organic matter exponentially which is decreasing the water infiltration rates. And bermuda STILL has a requirement for water like any other grass ( but obviously less ). A bermuda green with organic matter built up will not allow water to percolate at the rate it is needed. The water is hanging out inside the organic matters macropores like a sponge and sealing the green off from adequate gas exchange. Bermuda greens ARE prone to anaerobic conditions, and they ARE prone to blacklayer, just like any bentgrass green.

To say a technology like Sub-Air is unnecessary is naive to me. To be an extreme purist and say something like "Old Tom didnt have Sub-Air" or "how has grass survived so far?" is also naive and very unprogressive.

Theres alot of talk about fast and firm on here. You dont think Sub-Air could (and is) be a great tool to keep grass alive while evacuating all the excess water from a soft green, turning it into a dry and firm playing surface? I certainly do.


DRY = GAS EXCHANGE = HEALTHY GRASS + FIRM = HAPPY GOLFERS   


While at LACC I used the Sub-Air system with the Turf Guard soil sensor system. I collected ALOT of personal data and took NUMEROUS before and after soil tests. I can also show you greens with 3 - 4" of organic matter and extreme blacklayer that turned the corner to not having blacklayer. All because my main priority was getting water to move through the profile and keeping the soil flocculant and oxygenated. Water management on a green with heavy organic matter buildup is like trying to suck a bowling ball through a straw. The Sub-Airs were the key tool in managing them.

If Sub-Air should only be used on cool season greens on hot climates why are so many agronomic consultants and the worlds top clubs using them in very arid climates?  Because its all about the soil, not the plant.

You cant build a house without a solid foundation. You cant grow grass without a healthy soil.

[Ian Larson]

The cost...


A facility could purchase 1 portable Sub-Air at around $10,000 - $12,000

Retrofit 18 greens with slice valves at around $1500.

Plus man hours involved with locating main drain lines, digging up and installing slice valves.


Having permanent, under ground units is the Cadillac of systems is millions. But to get the same job done without the convenience of having the Cadillac is VERY possible and affordable for most facilities.

The difference between the Cadillac and my poorman's version is that the portable unit is on wheels and dragged around from green to green. If a facilities greens are suffering from anaerobic conditions, a portable Sub-Air is money well spent as an alternative to more closed days for aerification or a complete greens rebuild.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

Please understand that for the past few years, I've only heard from the Cadillac salesmen.

I understand that this can be a great tool if it's affordable.

I will accept that it's not necessarily for bent greens in hot humid climates only.

"To say a technology like Sub Air is unnecessary is naive to me."?  Perhaps we just have a different interpretation of the word "necessary".  It can be a great thing to have, but it's not a real necessity, or there would be thousands of golf courses in the world that couldn't cut it.  Its utility is all about whether its benefits justify the cost, which is why I asked about cost.

One thing I don't understand ... for older greens that have anaerobic soil, are you saying there's a way to install this system without tearing up the greens and rebuilding them?  No one has ever told me about that.  If it can prevent tearing up an old green to rebuild it, I'm all for that.

[Greg Chambers]

"To say a technology like Sub-Air is unnecessary is naive to me. To be an extreme purist and say something like "Old Tom didnt have Sub-Air" or "how has grass survived so far?" is also naive and very unprogressive."


Ian,

You are obviously very lucky to have had such great exposure to and success with the use of this system.  There are, however, those of us not fortunate enough to have had the oportunity to utilize such a tool.  But most of us get along just fine without, thank you very much.  For you to have insinuated that I am naive or very unprogressive based on my sarcastic comment, along with the fact that my particular club has more important things to spend its little amount of money on, is pure ignorance on your part.  You ought to think about a better way to express your opinions on such matters.

[Ian Larson]

Tom,


Yes, thats excatly what I did at LACC....


When I started there the greens had way too much organic and thatch will black as night blacklayer all through it. I would cut a plug out it and all you could smell was the rotten egg and sulfur odor. It was bad, real bad. And the poa wasnt liking it. It was all due to bad well water and not keeping up with the thatch accumulation in aerification.

So I randomly found 2 portable Sub-Airs in the back corner of a storage shed just collecting dust.


The only thing that a Sub-Air system needs to work is isolating the drainage system in the green. A Sub-Air is basically just a fan, nothing more, with an impellor. It can be setup to suck or blow    just by connecting the hose to either the intake or outtake flanges.

Isolating the green is necessary so that the Sub-Air can create a vaccum to suck water and air out or blow air into the soil profile. All you need to isolate the greens drainage system is a slice valve (kinda like a cigar cutter). Its a valve that you open and close simply by sliding the valve up or down with a handle. Down its closed, up its open. The valve needs to be installed on the bottom side of the drainage system where the water is flowing to exit the greens cavity. The Sub-Air is then connected to the top side of the drainage system, on the mainline, where the mainline is daylighted and capped.

The Sub-Air draws excess water out of the soil profile down into the existing greens drainage system. In the pipe the water flows downhill towards the slice valve, which is closed. After about 30 minutes or so you can slightly open the valve so that all the water can slowly exit the green while at the same time the Sub-Air is still sucking out water and maintaining a vaccum. Its not good to have the Sub-Air revved up all the way because it will draw water all the way up to its impellor which cant stand the force of the water and a shaft could break.

If you want to blow cool or warm air into the profile you simply connect the hose to the other flange where positive pressure is created (blow). Still keep the slice valve closed to isolate the green though. Its also important not to have the Sub-Air revved all the way up because if you have a very poor root system it could possibly create an air bubble on the green. But full rpm's are not necessary because the isolation valve is closed forcing the air to fill up the drainage lines and then permeate through the tiny slits up into the soil. Thats accomplished very easily with the Sub-Air running on low rpm's.


Like I said above, all you need is a slice valve installed inline with the greens mainline drain pipe where it exits the cavity. Then just hook up the Sub-Air at the high end of the pipe where its daylighted and capped.

The cost is 18 slice valves @ $70-ish and a portable Sub-Air Unit @ $10-12,000.

It gets the job done without rebuilding greens or scheduling even more aerifications.


Its totally necessary to me because a super can only aerify a certain amount of times per year. And the aerification is all about oxygen to the roots and thatch reduction. Sub-Air is the only tool that can physically FORCE oxygen in and CO2 out of the profile regardless of the amount of thatch. Its like the iron lungs for a green. I know Id rather have my lungs do the breathing for me instead of hoping that O2 and CO2 will naturally do it themselves.  

[Chris Cupit]

I know that the Standard Club in Atlanta has a sub-air system AND the heatng and cooling coils laid throughout each green.  If I understand correctly they are two different things.

The Sub-Air is used in Atlanta to primarily draw out moisture and help pull air and gases through the profile.  We have this system at my club although somewhat modified by Medalist Golf--our valves only allow air to be sucked out--we can not blow air back into the green.  That was not considered useful FOR OUR COURSE and saved us alot of money.

We have a portable unit that we used extensively in the summer of 2007 and I do believe it was very beneficial to help dry out greens that we had to hit with water in an effort to cool during the July that saw record temps in the 100s which is very unusual even for Atlanta.  Our super also felt that the pulling effect/sucking effect helped draw oxygen down and through the soil profile which helped gas exchange as well.

I saw the instalation of one green at The Standard Club of the heating and cooling coils and it was a MASSIVE undertaking.  You have a boiler and can run hot water through the coils under the green and for the golfer there are no frost delays!  Cool water can also circulate through the system.  That was WAY more $$$ than we could justify particualrly based on what we felt were rather minimal benefits for OUR COURSE.

[Ian Larson]

Greg,

That wasnt intended to be a shot at you (especially you, youre one the great super voices on here) or anyone else so please dont take offense to it. If it came across as a shot I apologize.

But I still cant phrase it any other way and thats just how I feel. If someone can honestly say that a tool like this is unnecessary and things have been fine without one, well, is kinda naive to me. Especially if someone has never experienced it first hand.

Im not trying to be the spokesman for Sub-Air here but I am trying to say that its an awesome tool that, well, is necessary. Gas exchange is a HUGELY necessary process in the soil enviornment. If I knew my greens were facing anaerobic conditions and I couldnt increase the frequency of aerations per year (who can?), Sub-Air would be the first thing I look into. If the club couldnt afford $12,000 in a lump sum I would get it financed. Some how I would get it done and be pro active about turning the greens from anaerobic to aerobic. And keeping them aereobic.

[Grant Saunders]

Please correct me if Im wrong.

Isnt the key ingredient in the ability to utilise this system the existence of a usga spec type herringbone or similar perforated drainage coil system currently in the green profile?

To imply that to instigate this method into your maintenance program is as simple as installing a couple of slice valves and purchasing a mobile fan unit is probably a bit misleading. I think this may be what Tom Doak was getting at.

[Ian Larson]

You obviously cant do it on an old pushup with no drainlines. I thought that would be obvious. If you have a herringbone drainage system in place under the green it can be done.

Tom was referring to the clubs that have permanent units for each green located in underground vaults which require running power to each unit. "The Cadillac".

Take it for what is. Like it. Hate it. But the guys that like it, and use it. Have a tremendous advantage over those who dont.

[Grant Saunders]

Ian

Unfortunately everyone on board here isnt a greenkeeper and therefore something that you feel should be obvious (ie the need for an existing herringbone system) isnt. 

I think it is great when supers post on here but I believe there needs to be some caution as many readers will take what is written on here as gospel and then misuse that information. It reminds me of the saying about someone with a little bit of knowledge being dangerous.

Im all for members of a club approaching the super/greenstaff to ask questions. I think that for anyone truly serious about understanding what goes on behind the scenes, that they should volunteer at their local club and see things first hand.

[Ian Larson]

Grant,

You're absolutely right. Effective communication at a club should be priority #1, Ive seen a compltete lack of it and the results arent good, so I should know better to be as concise as I can be on here.


"I think that for anyone truly serious about understanding what goes on behind the scenes, that they should volunteer at their local club and see things first hand."

....amen to that!