News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« on: August 17, 2008, 11:33:15 PM »
Mackenzie's design for the Adirondack Club is listed by Cornish and Whitten, and Doak, Scott and Haddock as a course that no longer exists, although there seems to be little out there about it that I could find - until now.

I recently stumbled upon a website at news.nnyln.org which is a newspaper archive put together by the libraries of northern New York state, and a very nice, searchable (and free!) archive it is too. So I thought I would search the Lake Placid News for articles about the Adirondack Club and I found quite a bit of material in the 1930 to 1931 timeframe, but puzzlingly little after that, which raises a number of questions.

The first mention of the planned Adirondack Club I found was from June 20 1930 when an article reported that a $3,000,000 project was planned by the Stevens Hotel Corporation for their Stevens House property at Signal Hill, as well as a major part of the Brewster Peninsula where an 18 hole golf course would be built, comprising a total of around 500 acres. At this time the article quoted from a report submitted by A W Tillinghast who had been to inspect the property. No mention of Mackenzie yet.



In the August 15 1930 issue it indicated that work on the 18 hole golf course would begin in October with Tillinghast supervising its construction.



By October all that had changed. In an October 24 1930 article headlined "To Build World's Finest Golf Course Here", Mackenzie had recently inspected the site and was quoted as saying that "I have never inspected any site which more favourably impressed me inland".



By November 14, a team of engineers from Wendell Miller's office had arrived to survey the land and to prepare a topographical map of the land, as well as to study the drainage, irrigation and soil analysis. Harry Lawson was the engineer in charge for Wendell Miller and his report to the owners was quoted in the November 1928 issue. Interestingly he claimed that the firm of Wendell Miller had been involved with "400-odd golf courses" which would seem a significant exaggeration, and probably includes all of Mackenzie's as well.



By March 20 1931 a "tentative layout of the golf course has been completed by Dr. MacKenzie who is expected in New York this month for consultation with the board of Governors and with the engineers. It is fully expected that work on this course will be started early in the spring."

By May 15 1931 it was announced that there would be two courses, and that Mackenzie would be visiting agin soon to consult with the owners and the building architect, Clifford C. Wendehack. There is a reference to Bayside Links which is very dark and difficult to read, but its clear that a group of golfers and newspaper reporters were invited to view construction of the 18th green which was being undertaken by heavy machinery in the same manner as Bayside Links was constructed - quite an interesting report.



In June an explosives engineer from DuPont was on site to advise of the explosives needed to remove rocks and it was reported that Mackenzie would be visiting Lake Placid on June 20. In July the construction of a new road into the Brewster Peninsula was announced and it was suggested Mackenzie would be on site any day to check the road plan and ensure it did not impact upon his course. By July 17 it was reported that Mackenzie had been on site and that he would make several changes in order to avoid the road and that he would return to Lake Placid "in a few days to start a clearing gang on the fairways." By July 1931 it was reported that clearing or roads and fairways was now in progress, and on August 28 it was indicated that Mackenzie would come again "as soon as the foliage thins enough to permit of a final check up on the golf course layout. Those in charge realize that it would be extremely unwise to proceed far in clearing the fairways until this had been done as trees cannot be replaced for many years once they are cut." Interestingly it was reported that the Club chairman had received a letter from Bobby Jones' father to say that they considered Mackenzie one of the greatest golf architects in the world and that they had contracted with him to build a course for them at Augusta.



However, from this point on I could find no further reports on the Adirondack Club course until one on June 9 1933, where it was reported that "The new eighteen-hole course of Paul Smith's Adirondack club, completed last summer but allowed to "season", will be played this summer by the club members and their friends." Paul Smith's Hotel was a prominent local hotel run by one of Paul Smith's sons. If this report is correct, it would seem that Paul Smith's Hotel may have taken over the Adirondack Club project sometime earlier from the Stevens Hotel group, but I can't find anything specific on this. If they are talking about Mackenzie's Adirondack Club course as it appears they are, then the course was completed in the summer of 1932 (which ties in with a summer of 1931 start for construction) but was allowed to grow-in without play until the summer of 1933.



After this though, I could find nothing that might have indicated when the course officially opened for play, or when it became defunct. So this part is fairly mysterious and I'm hoping people with any knowledge can chime in with any information.

Apparently the book "Adirondack Golf Courses - Past and Present" by Peter J Martin (1987) does not mention the Adirondack Club at all, which seems puzzling as its formative stages were well covered by the local press.

Mackenzie being in Lake Placid in 1930 and 1931 for the Adirondack Club, brings up the situation of his redesign of the Mountain Course at the Lake Placid Club (1931 according to DSH and the LPC website), but curiously I could find no mention of his work at the Lake Placid Club in the local newspapers until around 1990 when the club began to publicise his involvement with the redesign of the course originally laid out by Alex Findlay. Is there any hard evidence of Mackenzie's redesign work at Lake Placid Club I wonder?

Look forward to any responses.
cheers Neil

Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 07:00:18 AM »

By November 14, a team of engineers from Wendell Miller's office had arrived to survey the land and to prepare a topographical map of the land, as well as to study the drainage, irrigation and soil analysis. Harry Lawson was the engineer in charge for Wendell Miller and his report to the owners was quoted in the November 1928 issue. Interestingly he claimed that the firm of Wendell Miller had been involved with "400-odd golf courses" which would seem a significant exaggeration, and probably includes all of Mackenzie's as well.


Neil
This is by far your most interesting find yet, and that is saying something. I had always thought Adirondack Club was a mistake, and that it was actually one of the other existing clubs at Lake Placid he was consulting (there was a Lake Placid C and a Lake Placid G &CC). It sounds like Adirondack was actually built...is that what that last article indicates?

On the above quote did you mean to write 1930 and not 1928?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 07:20:11 AM »
Tom
Thanks. Newspaper accounts can be handy can't they!
Yes, my mistake, I meant to write November 28, 1930, and managed to get the day and the year mixed up.

I had not really thought about whether the listing of Adirondack Club was a mistake or not but once I found these articles it was clear there was something to it.

The last reference is in respect to the golf course at "Paul Smith's Adirondack Club" but I'm not yet sure that this was the same as the Adirondack Club of Lake Placid, as I believe Paul Smith's was at St Regis. So I'm not certain the Mackenzie course was ever completed and opened, but it would seem it got at least partway there according to the accounts of summer 1931.

Tom, do you know anything about Mackenzie's work on the Mountain course at Lake Placid Club?


Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 07:40:07 AM »
Neil
I don't know anything about Mackenize and the Mountain course, but I will defintely be on the look out. The Golf Guide of 1930-31 claims that LPC had two 18-hole courses and two nine-hole courses. Another golf guide from 1930 claims LP G&CC is nine holes with another nine under construction.

Scott Witter

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2008, 09:23:23 AM »
Hi Neil, trust you're well.

The account of the Lake Placid Club as with many other clubs scattered throught the Adirondacks begin clear enough, but get hazy quickly afterward.

I have found similar information to your references, but I have also found several references to Seymour Dunn as one of the designers credited.  Seymour Dunn was probably the most successful and prolifict architects in the Adirondack Park (6 milions acres worth).  To note, he was also a talented club maker, teacher and one heck of a golfer, winning the Adirondack Open 12 years running.  I played the course many times, but it was at least 20 years ago.  I recall that it had a similar character to many others in the Adirondacks and it possessed similar bunker styling and placement with others designed by Dunn--just an observation.

I suspect you also found reference to Melvil Dewey, inventor of the Dewey Decimal System as one of the founding members and 'idea' guys.  I too have the book by Peter Martin and I have talked with Peter at length about 12 years ago, regarding the story line of golf throughout the Adirondacks.

As you may know, there is also the Whiteface Resort & Country Club, located in Lake Placid.  I have seen a couple of references that Stiles & Van Kleek were the architects, but the new book on them has no mention of this course.

Also, at one point in time the Craig Wood Golf Club, located in Lake Placid, was once named Lake Placid Country Club.  My research exposed Seymour Dunn and Craig Wood (U.S. Open and Masters winner in 1941) as the designers.

Sorry I don't have any other definitive documentation re MacKenzie in Lake Placid, but that doesn't mean that I can't find some should it exist.  I live about 4 hours drive from the Adirondack Park and visit there at least 4-5 times a year.  I'll make a note and keep you in mind for the future.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2008, 10:24:33 AM »
Not to change the subject at all...but can someone give me a brief overview of the golden-age courses currently in existence in the Lake Placid area?  I get confused with much of the conjecture, as the names of each course/club appear to be very similar....I would love to get it straight.

Just a list "club/course/pub or priv/generally accepted designer" would be great!!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 10:31:43 AM »
Neil - thanks.

A question - what do you think happened there, and can I learn anything --in general -- about how Tillingast and MacKenzie worked, or the dymanincs of the craft and the business back then?

What I mean is: Tillinghast inspects the property sometime before June and writes a report. In August,  it's announced that the construction of an an 18 hole golf course would begin in October, with Tillinghast supervising. But by the time October rolls along, Mackenzie has also inspected the site and loved it, and has gotten the job - but in his case, before any talk of constructing the course begins, first the engineers are called in to survey the land and prepare a topo etc, etc.

My questions are: Why would Tillinghast be ready to go to work without a topo (if we can assume that) and MacKenzie not? Is that typical of the way they approached their work? What would the owners be basing their assessment of Tillinghast's plans on if there wasn't a topo, i.e. could what Tillinghast hoped to do with the site/the course be covered in the report?  Or, on the other hand, was the Club's assessment/decision-making process a given, i.e. should I assume that it was necessarily anything more than the Club just 'interviewing' several architects for the job (as is done today) but that it simply got in the media a little early/prematurely?

Thanks
Peter
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 10:35:53 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Scott Witter

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 10:43:14 AM »
Neil:

You got me thinking and I started to do a little digging...go back to that web site and call up Seymour Dunn's name.  You'll find a great article--lake-placid-news-batch-1997, written by Laura Viscome, which is the last of three (3) in a series that cronicles the history of Lake Placid's golf courses.  I didn't search for the other two , but I'm sure you'll find them.

In this article and in another from 2007, July-December, it mentions the Lake Placid Links course designed by Seymour Dunn in 1909. and the Mountain course designed in 1910 by Alex Findlay.  In the 2007 article, it states that Alister Mackenzie remodeled the Mountain course in 1931 with "Smaller greens and more tree-lined fairways" :P  There are more bits and pieces that I suspect will be valuable to you.

Hope this helps.  If you want to continue drop me an email, witterdesign@verizon.net

Scott

Scott Witter

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 11:01:43 AM »
Oops, I forgot to mention that there are more references to Melvil Dewey and his golf development prowess along with his hiring of Seymour Dunn for 2, 18-hole courses in the 1997 article.  Only one was built, the Links, or Lower course as it is now called.  At one time, there were 63 holes of golf at the resort, but shortly after WW2 it was reduced to 45 holes.

Brad, I agree that the courses and names are confusing and to be honest with you, even I am not completely clear on the who, what, where and when. ;)

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 08:58:47 PM »
Scott
Thanks for the reply. Yes, Seymour Dunn's name comes up a lot, and I did come across a mention of Dewey as well in connection with the Lake Placid Club.

I have attempted to make contact with Peter Martin and hopefully he will get back to me and I can show him what I have found and see what he knows about Mackenzie's course on the Brewster Peninsula. I am beginning to suspect that Paul Smith's Adirondack Club was a different entity altogether from the Adirondack Club of Lake Placid and in a different location at St Regis. And Scott, yes, the names sure are confusing!

Peter
I'm not sure what you can learn about Tillie and Mac from all of this, except that things have not changed at all in 70 years! I've been in on the early stages of a couple of projects and then lo and behold the client changed his mind and another architect has gotten the job. I expect both Tillie and Mac were on the receiving end on situations like this over their careers.

I don't think you should read into it that necessarily Tillie would have gone without a topo as I'm confident Tillie used topos as bases for his plans, Phil Young can confirm this I'm sure. So I just think the article didn't mention one and that doesn't mean he wasn't about to arrange for one to be made.

It would not surprise me if they had told Tillie that he had the job but then reneged when they heard about the possibility of getting Mackenzie.

Brad
Sorry, but I don't know enough yet about the Lake Placid courses to make such a list.

Tom
Thanks for keeping an eye out on this one for me.

Following is a photo I've found of Stevens House, the hotel run by the Stevens brothers, which was to be acquired by the Adirondack Club. Clearly not a little shack..........

cheers Neil



Peter Pallotta

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 09:24:31 PM »
Neil - thanks much for that. I wasn't sure if I was reading too much into those few articles, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks
Peter

Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 10:32:33 PM »
Neil
I think Lake Placid GC (not to be confused with LPC or LPG&CC) was associated with Stevens House. It was nine hole course that dated from 1924. I found the same thing about Smith's golf course, it was a different site, which makes me wonder if Mackenzie's course was ever completed.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2008, 12:37:48 AM »
Tom
Yes, I believe there was a 9 hole course at Stevens House that was there when Mackenzie was planning his 36 holes on the Brewster peninsula.

I think its a fair conclusion to draw that Paul Smith's Adirondack Club course was not the same as the Adirondack Club of Lake Placid, despite the confusing similarity of their names. Wonder who designed the course for Paul Smith's AC? Seemingly no mention of that in any of the articles. Just looked it up in C&W and they have the architect as (no surprise) Seymour Dunn.

Another fair conclusion to come to is that Mackenzie's course was not completed and its likely therefore that the Adirondack Club of LP never got established either with their grand plans of facilities.

Perhaps we will have to invent a new category to complement NLE, how about NQE or Never Quite Existed.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 01:22:47 AM »
Peter,

You asked for an understanding on the differences in the approach to the project that Tilly and Mackenzie used. You asked three separate questions:

1- My questions are: Why would Tillinghast be ready to go to work without a topo (if we can assume that) and MacKenzie not? Is that typical of the way they approached their work?

Tilly approached potential projects with a conviction that he was the man to be hired, regardless of who else may have been spoken to about the project. In his mind it was get the signature on the contract and everything else will follow. It also appears that Mackenzie thought this also; at least in regard to this project.

Note that Neil quotes from an October 24 issue of the newspaper as proof that Mackenzie now had been given the project, yet it isn't until November 14th, some three weeks later, that "a team of engineers" arrived to survey the site and to prepare a topo map for the course design.

The difference between the two architects at this time is that Tilly had an in-house engineer who would survey sites and produce topographical drawings for him... his son-in-law Harold Worden who was a cicvil engineer and worked with Tilly from1928 to 1932.

The real question may be why did Mackenzie win the job? Could it be that Tilly's proposal contained many numbers that were out of the control of the owners, such as engineering fees? Whereas Mackenzie gave up this, and possibly other aspects upon which he would profit, to the ownership? quite possibly. Could it have been that he did a better job selling himself on this? Evidently so.

Was the decision based upon comparative designs? Definitely not as can be seen from the articles themselves.

2- What would the owners be basing their assessment of Tillinghast's plans on if there wasn't a topo, i.e. could what Tillinghast hoped to do with the site/the course be covered in the report? 

As can be seen from above, Tilly hadn't provided a tentative plan or routing for the course. therefor the owners assessment as to whom to choose would have been based solely on presentations. Even without seeing it I am certain that Tilly's "report" would have contained phrases such as "the perfect site for a golf course" and "I foresee this to be the finest course I will have ever built" and other flowery ones that eqaul these. Tilly's greatest golf course design was always the one he was working on next.

I would also expect the report to state things such as the terrain "allows for the use of many natural features" and "there are many a fine specimine tree that will be preserved and integrated into the course" and others like these. He would state that a championship course of whatever length they desired could be created and that it would test the great players of the day while providing lesser ones with great pleasure.

It wouldn't contain specifics as Tilly might stake out a course, and might have even done this already, but he wouldn't finalize any design without a topo. There are a number of examples of where he staked out courses and then had engineers come in to produce topos of both site and proposed hole locations based upon this proposed course staking.

3- Or, on the other hand, was the Club's assessment/decision-making process a given, i.e. should I assume that it was necessarily anything more than the Club just 'interviewing' several architects for the job (as is done today) but that it simply got in the media a little early/prematurely?

Among the most difficult things for anyone to do is look back 70-100 years and try to figure out the political dynamics that led to final decision making on who to use as architects for many of these projects.

I mentioned to Neil that in September of 1928 it was announced that Donald Ross was to design a course in Atlanta which would be considered the greatest of it's time. Three weeks later the owner, Harrie Ansley, was holding apress conference with A.W. Tillinghast who he had personally gone to New York and brought back with him, announcing that Tilly would design and built the Colonial Golf Club.

This scenario that befell Tilly at lake Placid was the same as when Tilly took the job from Ross in Atlanta. It happened more often than many are aware of and probably a great deal more so  during the Depression as this one was.

Hope this helps answer the questions...

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2008, 02:09:16 AM »
Phil
Nice post.
In fact the June 20 1930 article from the Lake Placid News contains an extract from Tilly's report to the owners:

"It was with peculiar satisfaction that I made a survey of the tract at Lake Placid, over which your new golf course will extend. Although intimately acquainted with the region, my critical examination revealed the immense possibility of this particular area. Certainly it will yield a course of great distinction.

The setting for any course at Lake Placid is magnificent, and for many years the scenic beauties of the lake and its surroundings have been an inspiration to golfers there. But until the new course is developed the Adirondack visitor can have but small conception of the true greatness of Lake Placid golf.

I know of no other course which I would rather build. Sentiment may be responsible for a bit of this, and I am sure it is, but the professional instinct that realises truely unusual opportunity is the great urge.

Very truly yours
(Signed) A. W. Tillinghast"

Phil, I think the level of rhetoric is up there where you expected!
Neil


Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2008, 08:31:55 AM »
Neil
It appears the project was another victim of the Depression. I suspect the project was designed to take advantage of the 1932 Winter Olympics at Lake Placid, and when that event came and went the whole thing probably lost momentum. Evidently Stevens House was the largest hotel at LP at the time. It was razed some time in the 50s.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2008, 09:05:22 AM »
Phil - thanks very much for that post. I wish I knew at least one subject as well as you know Tillinghast!

Much appreciated
Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2008, 11:31:53 AM »
Phil:

I agree with your perspective on this subject.  Most architects were desperate for real work in 1931, and it's not unlikely that things were announced even before contracts were inked ... in fact the developers probably sought all the free publicity they could get for the potential project, and newspapers are an excellent source for free publicity.

The same thing goes on today, that's why I don't talk much about new projects until they are really underway ... and even then, it might be premature!

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 03:31:54 PM »
Tom Mac
That's the conclusion I'm coming too as well, a victim of the depression and probably didn't get much further than tree clearing and building that 18th green. Bet Wendell Miller had a nice set of green plans though. Would love to find his archive one day! That would be like Indy finding the Crystal Skull.

Tom D
Interested to know where your info about it to include it in the NLE list in your book came from - from C&W perhaps? I'm with you too, I don't like to talk about a new project too soon as it might give a heads up to competitors and may be the 'kiss of death'.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 09:18:57 PM »
Neil
Believe me I've looked. I've tracked down his son and spoken to him on three or four occasions, but I'm affraid he doesn't have anything. Ironcially Miller's office back in the day is next door to my favorite watering hole in downtown Columbus.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 12:08:15 AM »
Tom
Didn't know you had tracked down Wendell's son and its a shame he doesn't have any records of his father's, but hardly surprising. Maybe they are buried under the floor in the old office and you can tunnel in from your watering hole next door! Maybe you can try it next time you get well watered.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 07:28:30 AM »
Neil
I think a better plan would be to borrow TE Paul's time machine...after getting fully prepared at the watering hole.

Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Adirondack Club of Lake Placid - A Mackenzie NLE
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 08:54:54 AM »
So, is there any evidence anywhere that Mackenzie did design or redesign anything in the Lake Placid area?

The Lake Placid Club sure uses his name to market their Mountain course....  As anyone been able to confirm with the Club what kind of information supports their clame?

Just curious.  The course is two hours away from my place, and it sounds like it would be worth a visit....

Thanks.

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back