[Jason Topp]

It seems like a purely penal hole to me. 

Hit the fairway and hit the green.  It is memorable because of the blindness, but I cannot think of much strategic interest presented by the hole.

Nonetheless, I would look forward to playing it again.

Why is it held out as an example of good design?  Or is it?

[Anthony Gray]

  Uniqueness and minimalism.

 Anthony

[Mike_Cirba]

What about the option of playing out to the right and then pitching the 3rd shot rather than attempt the blind full carry approach?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jason,

http://newenglandgreenkeeper.com/Documents/Golf-Illustrated_1914_06_Macdonald%20alps.pdf

[Steve Salmen]

Jason,

It's been about 7 years since I've played Prestwick.   I understand your question.  I don't think it's particularly stunning.  It's pretty cool that it's a very natural hole, and I have no problems with the blind second shot.   If I recall correctly, there is a large bunker over the hill, short of the green.  This basically takes landing short out of the question, eliminating options.  Also, if my memory is right, the slope behind the green is very severe from back to front.   I suppose the second must be played as a typical American shot, high and soft.  Am I way off base here?

[Tom Huckaby]

Which Alps hole do you mean?

Prestwick - I'd agree with Anthony - it's unique and quite minimalist.  That being said I don't think it's ever been revered for its design - it's revered because it's darn fun to play, in a strange way.  One doesn't tend to face many blind shots over large hills.

NGLA - this one has strategic choices for sure... left, right, over... so you must mean Prestwick, right?

There are also other Alps holes, aren't there?

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

Don't forget that the Alps at Prestwick got famous in the days when you were hitting a fairway wood over the ridge for your second shot, not a 9-iron.

[Mark Smolens]

Though Prestwick's Alps is fun, it pales when compared to the Reverse Alps at the Jans. . .

[BCrosby]

Mid-O's Alps (the 4th) is no where near as strategic as the Alps at NGLA. It plays more like the Alps at Prestwick.

Bob

[Joe Hancock]

Though Prestwick's Alps is fun, it pales when compared to the Reverse Alps at the Jans. . .

The question is why is it "revered", not "reversed"......

[Steve Salmen]

Tom,

Do you know if  the bunker short of the green was in existence when the players were hitting 3 woods over the hill at Prestwick?  If so, it was probably a brutally difficult hole.

[Sebonac]

NGLA Alps has a variety of choices...on the tee...do you hit driver....on downwind days...you can easily go through the fairway into the center trap or the heavy stuff...making your second shot daunting.  If you do go with the driver...do you try to play it up the slot on the right for a possible look at the pin on your second....or do you lay back with the three wood into the valley for the long, blind second.  If you hit a bad drive....do you go for the carry on the second...or lay up in the slot on the right?  If the pin is on the upper right....do you go for it even with a good drive...as it is a bit of a sucker pin...if you do go for that pin...it requires at least one extra club...perhaps more....and if you are not straight on...neither outcome left or right is appealing.

[Jason Topp]

Which Alps hole do you mean?

Prestwick - I'd agree with Anthony - it's unique and quite minimalist.  That being said I don't think it's ever been revered for its design - it's revered because it's darn fun to play, in a strange way.  One doesn't tend to face many blind shots over large hills.

TH

The only Alps I am aware of playing is the one at Prestwick.  

I agree it is fun to play but don't think it fits any of the criteria I would normally associate with a good hole.  In that way it is similar to the Klondyke which is longer but similar in principle.

Perhaps fun should be the only criteria for judging a hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason:

What other criteria do you use?

Fun works for me.  Of course fun can occur in many ways.  But as I've said countless times on this site, people outside of the business, not knowing what really goes into the making of a hole/course, have little business judging "design."  Judge how fun a golf hole is to play - we can all take a crack at that.

And the Alps at Prestwick is very fun to play.  So, I can live with calling it a great golf hole.  Man doth not live by strategic choices alone....

But to that end, of course there are plenty of other Alps holes - several others have already commented on the great one at NGLA.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

One doesn't tend to face many blind shots over large hills.
TH

That's because (some)one hasn't deigned to trek to Evanston to play the greatest Alps hole ever devised!   

I figure I wouldn't be allowed in the club.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Yes, the cross bunker in front of the green at Prestwick has always been there.  Its most famous appearance was in the final of the Amateur Championship in 1899 ... it had rained heavily, and the bunker was flooded.  As Bernard Darwin described it,

"It was in this bunker also that Mr. Tait played his ever-famous shot out of water, and Mr. Ball followed it with a superb niblick out of hard wet sand, which is not half as famous as it ought to be.  Truly the 'Alps" is a hole with a great history."

[Bill_McBride]

I got to ring the bell at NGLA, which might have been my best play of the day!

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

What other criteria do you use?

TH

I like to add meat to the bones of that criteria.  In other words answer the question of why one hole is more fun than another?

Regardless of a hole's other merits, I generally think it is fun to hit the ball over something.  In the case of Prestwick's Alps, that aspect seems to trump any other criteria one would put forward.

[Tom Huckaby]

And I don't add meat and bones, and answer the question as to why one hole is more fun than another?

How's this:  the Alps at Prestwick is more fun than #3 at Santa Teresa, because:

a) the Alps has history oozing out of every inch of it and one can feel it if one has a soul;
b) one doesm't face many blind shots over hills, and this one has the mother of all such;
c) it takes two darn good shots to reach the green and gives one heck of a satisfaction if achieved... the walk over or around the hill to see where one's ball ended up being a very fun anticipatory experience; and

d) #3 at Santa Teresa has none of these things.

Does that work?

 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Steve:

Yes, the cross bunker in front of the green at Prestwick has always been there.  Its most famous appearance was in the final of the Amateur Championship in 1899 ... it had rained heavily, and the bunker was flooded.  As Bernard Darwin described it,

"It was in this bunker also that Mr. Tait played his ever-famous shot out of water, and Mr. Ball followed it with a superb niblick out of hard wet sand, which is not half as famous as it ought to be.  Truly the 'Alps" is a hole with a great history."

Tom,

What happened to golf?

Shots out of water, and out of hard wet sand! Great stuff.

[Steve Salmen]

Jason,

Do you think the Alps is similar to #17 at North Berwick?  They are similar distances and you have to fly the ball to the green, with nothing buy trouble short.  Granted Alps is not an uphill shot.

Ironically, both courses climax at 17, as both 18th holes are similar to each other and pretty unexciting.

[Anthony Gray]

Jason,

Do you think the Alps is similar to #17 at North Berwick?  They are similar distances and you have to fly the ball to the green, with nothing buy trouble short.  Granted Alps is not an uphill shot.

Ironically, both courses climax at 17, as both 18th holes are similar to each other and pretty unexciting.

  Steve,

  Well done and agreed. NB is a longer shot but the two have great simuliarities.

  Anthony

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

Do you think the Alps is similar to #17 at North Berwick?  They are similar distances and you have to fly the ball to the green, with nothing buy trouble short.  Granted Alps is not an uphill shot.

Ironically, both courses climax at 17, as both 18th holes are similar to each other and pretty unexciting.

  Steve,

  Well done and agreed. NB is a longer shot but the two have great simuliarities.

  Anthony

I actually think the North Berwick hole (perfection) is pretty disappointing.  For me it carries none of the thrill of the Alps and particularly pales in comparison to 13, 15 and 16.

I also disagree regarding the closing holes.  I think they, along with the 18th at St. Andrews are very good half par holes that reward good play with a 3, but not as often as one would think when standing on the tee.  I like that type of finish.

[Steve Salmen]

Jason,

From the fairway, Perfection appears very much like Alps' second.  My only point in bringing up 17 at NB is that the second must be flown to the green, like Alps.

[Mike_Cirba]

To show you what a Macdonaldphile I am, I didn't even think about the original at Prestwick when I read Jason's question...I just assumed he was talking about the wonderful Alps at NGLA.

Of course, some folks out there who've read my posts might wonder how I can be such a huge CB Macdonald fan yet engaged in the whole Merion controversy from the other side of the fray.

Simple, really...that simpering wimpy toady HJ Whigham really, really gets on my last nerve.   

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