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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2009, 08:45:07 PM »
Jim,

When's the last time that you viewed aerial photos circa 1925 and 1938 ?

BCrosby

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2009, 11:29:52 AM »
The issue with tree removal at PV is not just about bringing bunkers back into play, though that's certainly an important consideration.

It's also about sight lines. You would be removing much of current splendid isolation of many holes. It would mean, for example, that from the 12th green you would be able to see most of the remaining holes on the back nine and the 7th and 8th on the front. Which would be a dramatic change.

I hope that PV does tree removal of that sort. But the look and feel of the new PV will be a shocker, at least initially, to many. It's not just about getting some pines out of fw bunkers.

Bob   

JESII

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2009, 12:14:25 PM »
Bob,

That certainly would be a dramatic view from the 12th green, but I doubt that view ever actually existed.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2009, 12:18:21 PM »
Thanks for all the info on PV, everyone.

I don't understand the desire for isolation on a golf course. Ever. But I guess that's just me.

The debate between Tom P and Pat M has been going on for years - it's always a fascinating read to me, even if it rarely progresses. Has anyone ever posted Mr. Crump's actual words/thoughts (written or otherwise) on the notion of isolation?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2009, 12:51:18 PM »
Bob,

That certainly would be a dramatic view from the 12th green, but I doubt that view ever actually existed.


Jim & Bob,

It didn't exist in 1925.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2009, 01:22:14 PM »
The 1925 aerial in The Golden Age of Golf Design (pages 53 and 66) certainly show a pretty densely forested course even if the trees are only 15 feet tall...I can't find a 1938 aerial other page 63 of #'s 15 and 16.

As I have said a few times, I think the routing and topography provide a great deal of isolation at Pine Valley...

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2009, 11:06:54 PM »
BobC and George P:

The entire tree situation at Pine Valley, from way back then to today is a complex issue from a whole variety of angles and reasons. For anyone to deal with it really intelligently one needs to consider the whole thing in toto over about a century. This includes sight-lines on the ground and what one sees in an aerial.

To understand it all as well as one needs to, again it has to be considered altogether over about a century including the obvious fact that trees grow in height (eg to have that site look like it did from on-the-ground eye level when Crump was there they would need to take down about a million trees, replant the whole site from scratch and then probably wait about 15-20 years until the entire site looked about the same and the trees were the same height as they were on that site when Crump first found it around 1910-13.

The last thing you want at a club interested in any kind of restoration is some guy to breeze in there and do nothing more than look at a 1925 aerial in the front room and suggest seriously that should be the blueprint for tree removal today with no more knowledge or understanding of Crump and his friends and their understanding of his intentions, his creation there and the evolution of the course over the last century.

That's what Pat Mucci is doing here; it's what he's always done on this site with Pine Valley and its trees; but the fact is he has absolutely no understanding of Crump, the creation of that course or the evolution of it other than what I've told him or told him on here. How in the Hell could he know more about it than that? Has he ever spent years there or anywhere else researching that place? Of course not!

Here's a great example. Pat Mucci has vociferously recommended the club restore that massive and infamous pimple on the 18th green. The material documentation is irrefutable that Crump himself considered that to be temporary and had every intention of changing it himself (and app. to what is even recorded).

Does any of that matter to Patrick Mucci? Apparently not as he has recommended it be restored without any other knowledge of the particulars of the thing and what Crump planned to do! Apparently Pat Mucci's only argument is that it was once there. Apparently why doesn't even concern or interest him!  ;)

Some of the things he says on here may sound great to some people on this website who are not familiar with much of any of the architectural histories of these clubs but from the club's perspective it would be most unwise to take recommendations that unresearched.

I rest my case, Your Honor.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:25:24 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2009, 11:42:23 PM »
"As I have said a few times, I think the routing and topography provide a great deal of isolation at Pine Valley..."

Sully:

A lot of that isn't even the topography of the site. Most don't appreciate how much real estate there is between some of those holes.

Do you remember the dramatic difference in look when they cleared all the trees out on both sides of #2 or even on #3 or on the right of #14 exposing the bunkers? The change in look was stunning---dramatic. I doubt Pat Mucci would've even realized the difference. Plus he seems to want to restore the look of the site to about a century ago when about a million trees down there were about 1/10 the height they are now. No club interested in intelligent restoration or maintenance management needs to listen to anyone that irrational and uninformed.   :P

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2009, 07:50:00 AM »
Thanks for all the info on PV, everyone.

I don't understand the desire for isolation on a golf course. Ever. But I guess that's just me.

The debate between Tom P and Pat M has been going on for years - it's always a fascinating read to me, even if it rarely progresses. Has anyone ever posted Mr. Crump's actual words/thoughts (written or otherwise) on the notion of isolation?

George,
The "isolation" at PV is something surreal.  It's like every hole is its own world with its own sense of adventure.  Each is a new challenge and a new opportunity for triumph.   I've never seen anything like it elsewhere, and it's really a bit part of its charm.

What adds to the experience (I've only attended 2 Crump Cups and the Philly Open there as a spectator) is the wonderful aroma of the place.  The scent of pines along with the sandy treks and isolation are really wonderful.

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2009, 09:25:51 AM »
"Has anyone ever posted Mr. Crump's actual words/thoughts (written or otherwise) on the notion of isolation?"

George:

As far as I can tell Crump never kept a diary or a chronicle himself of what he wanted or wanted to do at Pine Valley but that certainly doesn’t mean he never talked about it with others because he obviously did and some of that was recorded in various ways over time. Particularly W.B. Smith, apparently one of his best friends down there and also  Father Simon Carr, a Catholic priest and another very close friend of Crump's keep some records, including an article in Jan 1915 by Carr. Both were very good players and regular partners of Crump's. They were also members and committee members there throughout Crump's time there and afterwards.

After Crump died suddenly in Jan, 1918 they both produced a hole by hole report of what they remembered Crump thought and said about various things to do with the course and what he planned to do with it and with certain holes. Some of Smith's were dated as to when he wrote them and they were during the years Crump was alive and working seemingly daily on the place. Carr's may've been written after Crump died. Apparently the club asked them to produce these remarks that I call "The Remembrances." The reason is pretty clear---eg after about a year hiatus the club wanted to finish off the course in the manner they felt Crump wanted to do it or would have done it.

Hugh Alison was hired in 1921 to come up with a report to finish off the course and his report reflects the point that the club and committee wanted to finish it off in the manner Crump wanted it as best they could understand (again that was the point of Carr and Smith's "Remembrances"). This does not mean that Alison did not make some of his own recommendations on various things because he did and many of them were followed but not all. There is actually another report by that committee which I call "The 1921 Committee" that itemizes point by point what they accepted, what they put on hold and what they did not accept of Alison's comprehensive hole by hole report. Because of this event (the 1921 Advisory committee) and Alison’s recommendations and what was accepted and done via and at that time, I believe Hugh Alison takes on a bit more importance with the architectural history of Pine Valley than most today realize. Alison, however, could not or did not remain on hand for the work done and so it was executed by others and perhaps not always exactly to Alison's recommendations. Most think that included Jim Govan and Flynn and the Wilsons of Merion and may’ve included even Captain George Thomas to some extent. Later Perry Maxwell finished off some of the recommendations from that committee.

Later, likely around the late 1920s another large project was carried out on and with the course that the records call “stabilizing the course” or alternatively “holding the course together.”

Most have never even heard of that and it involved trying to stabilize some of the massive sloping sand areas around the course from shifting, collapsing etc. That involved the terracing and planting (trees and other vegetation) of large areas of the course, including formalizing into smaller and more distinct bunkering some of the massive bunker upsweeps on some holes and particularly around some greens such as #2, #10 and #18. People who just look at some of those early aerials of the course before that was done apparently have no idea what it all meant and the importance of it or even that it was ever done. That certainly is another factor that is important to know if one is entertaining some idea of returning the course to the look of some aerial, say 1925, as Pat Mucci apparently is.

But no, I’m not aware that Crump said anything specifically about what is being called on here the “splendid isolation” of the holes of Pine Valley via trees. I think it is possible that Crump may've written some letters about some of the things he was doing and thinking there but I'm not sure of that and unfortunately with that kind of thing (letter writing) it becomes a matter of the fact that those letters went to various people and were never brought back into the archives of Pine Valley. What I do know is that Crump did not seem to correspond with Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture about his course and the agronomy even though those two men did consult with Pine Valley on that. Both Alan and Hugh Wilson did that for Crump because both were members there and involved with that course very closely from time to time.

One can probably assume, however, that Crump was not such an idiot that it never occurred to him that those unusually low and small trees (obviously because most ALL the literally hundreds of thousands of trees on the site were fairly young) would grow and probably five times taller or more than they were then.

Crump found a site that obviously had hundreds of thousands of trees on it and he removed about 40-50,000 of them mostly to open up hole corridors so he could see them and test them (he and his foreman Govan were constant shot testers). Some of those he never used for holes so over time they were closed back up with tree planting. And Crump did plant various trees in various places, particularly around tees with a number of tree types that are listed and named in the club records.

So, in my opinion, if Crump did not want hundreds of thousands of trees on that site and between holes he probably would have taken them all out or since that would’ve clearly been a costly and Herculean effort he probably would’ve found a site that did not have as many trees or any trees on it as Pine Valley most certainly did before he found it and bought it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 09:41:03 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2009, 12:11:57 PM »

The last thing you want at a club interested in any kind of restoration is some guy to breeze in there and do nothing more than look at a 1925 aerial in the front room and suggest seriously that should be the blueprint for tree removal today with no more knowledge or understanding of Crump and his friends and their understanding of his intentions, his creation there and the evolution of the course over the last century.

45 years of experience in playing Pine Valley is hardly "breezing in".

And, unlike others, I've been advocating tree/shrub/underbrush management for decades.


That's what Pat Mucci is doing here; it's what he's always done on this site with Pine Valley and its trees; but the fact is he has absolutely no understanding of Crump, the creation of that course or the evolution of it other than what I've told him or told him on here.

Bob & George,

I know that you're too intelligent to believe that my sole source of information regarding PV is from an escapee from Happydale Farms.


How in the Hell could he know more about it than that? Has he ever spent years there or anywhere else researching that place? Of course not!

I first played PV in 1964, 45 years ago.
I can assure you that much of the vegetation that existed only a few years ago and currently, did NOT exist then.  I know, from first hand experience, what the golf course looked like then and what it looked like in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 2000's.  So the notion, postured by TEPaul, that I have no frame of reference over the last half a century is sheer nonsense.

If TEPaul doesn't want to give credence to how PV looked in 1938, then, let's take 1964 as the benchmark year.  Just clearing to 1964 would be a huge improvement.

TEPaul's position is that Crump wanted all of the sand waste areas planted with pines.  That's pure B.S. and he knows it.

While I do communicate regularly with CBM, SR and CB, they tell me that Crump refuses to take any of TEPaul's calls.  Thus, he knows nothing of Crump's intent in 1918 in the context of 2009.

Since TEPaul must be led, in baby step fashion, let's take the first step by setting the goal of restoring PV to its 1964 configuration.

TEPaul is also aware that a few short years ago PV began planting the edges of the bunkers on some holes, like # 7 greenside bunkers.

He knows and acknowledges this because I was the one who informed him of the undertaking, an undertaking in the wrong direction if one believes in the raw nature of Crump's intent.

The fact that PV has begun to clear out a vast number of trees/shrubs/undergrowth is evidence that PV understands that excessive vegetation has been allowed to invade the golf course, benignly and overtly, detracting from its architectural and playing values, and that vegetation must be removed.

Only a few years ago there were those elements of the Philadelphia school of blindness who thought that there was no need to remove any trees/shrubs/underbrush, it's amazing how they've been quick to jump on the PV clearing bandwagon in recent years.

For decades I've noticed and objected to the invasive nature and negative impact of the trees/shrubs/underbrush.  I was the lone voice advocating removal.  Now suddenly, guys from across the Delaware have started to see the light.

I guess, with the sun rising in the east, that's why it's light in NJ and still dark in Philly.

If they get to 1964, they should consider setting their sights on 1938.


Here's a great example. Pat Mucci has vociferously recommended the club restore that massive and infamous pimple on the 18th green. The material documentation is irrefutable that Crump himself considered that to be temporary and had every intention of changing it himself (and app. to what is even recorded).

That's correct.
However, what you disengenuously omitted was that Crump himself want to replace the mound/pimple with a ridge/spine.  My advocacy has always been that that green needs that feature, be it the original mound, or the spine/ridge suggested by Crump.

We know one FACT.
Crump designed and built that mound into the 18th green.

Who builds a substantive, temporary feature into a green ?
WHY would you do that if the feature was temporary ?
WHY build it at all ?

It's my belief that Crump, like me, thought that the massive green needed a feature to divide the green, be it a mound/hump/pimple or a spine/ridge.

He tried the hump/mound and probably decided that the spine/ridge would be functionally, a more desired feature.

TEPaul's omission of that FACT should serve to support my position, a position SHARED BY CRUMP, that the 18th green needs an internal feature akin to a spine/ridge-hump/mound.

That TEPaul can't understand that is one of the reasons he's confined to Happydale Farms and that all sharp instruments are removed from his room..


Does any of that matter to Patrick Mucci? Apparently not as he has recommended it be restored without any other knowledge of the particulars of the thing and what Crump planned to do!


That's not true.
That's the position you must take to try to justify your resistance to Crump's intent.  An intent he manifested by designing and constructing a mound in the center of the green, which he went on to state should be modified to a spine/ridge.

YOU on the other hand, want the green left as is, bland and completely contrary to Crump's actions and desires.

I rest my case.


Apparently Pat Mucci's only argument is that it was once there. Apparently why doesn't even concern or interest him!  ;)

I know why Crump wanted a pronounced feature IN the 18th green, be it a mound or a spine/ridge.  He recognized that the green needed additional, tactical, architectural features.

He went to the trouble of designing and building one and then stated that he wanted to modify/alter the mound by converting it to a spine/ridge.

Those are the FACTS.
That you want to support the PV party line for NOT restoring his feature or his intent is your choice, no matter how contrary to Crump's wishes.

I'm right, you and PV are wrong.
Case closed.


Some of the things he says on here may sound great to some people on this website who are not familiar with much of any of the architectural histories of these clubs but from the club's perspective it would be most unwise to take recommendations that unresearched.

Oh really.

Tell me ONE thing, that I've stated above, about the 18th green, that's wrong.

The reason what I say sounds great is simple.
I've got the FACTS on my side, the photographic EVIDENCE and geometric like logic to support my position.

You on the other hand have nothing but unfounded typed words and benign neglect to support your case.


I rest my case, Your Honor.  ;)


Here's the problem.   
The Judge isn't sitting on the bench.
He left the courthouse, with everyone else, hours ago after the Jury returned a unanimous verdict in my favor.

Now go home and turn out the lights on your way out.
 ;D


TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2009, 12:35:47 PM »
"45 years of experience in playing Pine Valley is hardly "breezing in"."


Patrick:

As usual, saying something like that has no meaning or application to what you've been recommending---eg that the club just use that app. 1925 aerial as the blueprint or goal to restore to on that course TREE-wise.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to point it out to you but apparently I do----having 45 years of experience PLAYING Pine Valley isn't going to do anyone much good with understanding what happened in detail almost a century ago as well as what happened in the late 1920 and why. I guess I need to point out to you that 45 years ago is in the 1960s and that's a long way from the teens or the late 1920s!

That's not called PLAYING Patrick, it's called RESEARCH and the fact is whatever you know about that club from those early times you got from me and now you think you need to argue with him about what it means?

That's ridiculous. Both of us agree on tree removal, it's simply a matter of how much and where it is done. Again, if the club takes out the trees surrounding the bunkers on the course and their shot lines it would be a fantastic restoration and about all they would need to do with tree removal.

Frankly, you've probably never even done a study of where all the bunkers and their shot lines are.

That's what I mean about someone breezing in there and just looking at an early aerial in the front hall and gratuitously suggesting that should be used as the blueprint to return to. That is not what one might call research oriented and it's not informed that's for damn sure! In other words there really is a whole lot more to  know than just that aerial photograph!

I have no doubt if you'd researched the creation and evolution of the architecture and maintenance of that course over the last ten years as I have you would not make a suggestion about that 1925 aerial and tree removal using it as a total blueprint or goal that you have. To go back to that could create some problems out there someone like you apparently couldn't even imagine.

What you should do is stick to making suggestion like this on a course you know the entire architectural history of such as GCGC.

That's the only issue I have with you about Pine Valley. It's not about tree removal or no tree removal at all. I think you understand I've suggested and advocated for tree removal there for years and they've been doing it for a few years now which you probably aren't even aware of either.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 12:45:54 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2009, 03:31:45 PM »
"45 years of experience in playing Pine Valley is hardly "breezing in"."


Patrick:

As usual, saying something like that has no meaning or application to what you've been recommending---eg that the club just use that app. 1925 aerial as the blueprint or goal to restore to on that course TREE-wise.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to point it out to you but apparently I do----having 45 years of experience PLAYING Pine Valley isn't going to do anyone much good with understanding what happened in detail almost a century ago as well as what happened in the late 1920 and why. I guess I need to point out to you that 45 years ago is in the 1960s and that's a long way from the teens or the late 1920s!

Whatever happened in the late 20's, and I'm not sure you know what that was, was clearly in evidence in 1938, and most certainly had manifested itself, fully and maturedly, by 1964.

So, don't go acting as if whatever happened in the late 20's remained an ongoing secret, known but to a few.  It didn't.  Whatever happened in the late 20's became the evolving golf course in 1938 and 1964 unless it was realtered.

The photographic evidence in 1938 doesn't materially deviate from the photographic evidence in 1925, and shockingly, probably not from 1964 either.

Anything done in the late 20's, and you've yet to identify and provide the specifics would be clearly evidenced in 1938.  And if it's NOT clearly evidenced in 1938, then it didn't happen.

1964 is closer to the late 20's than it is to 2009.


That's not called PLAYING Patrick, it's called RESEARCH and the fact is whatever you know about that club from those early times you got from me and now you think you need to argue with him about what it means?

I can assure you that a great deal of my information relative to PV comes from more than one source.

The mound in the 18th green is a perfect example.


That's ridiculous. Both of us agree on tree removal, it's simply a matter of how much and where it is done. Again, if the club takes out the trees surrounding the bunkers on the course and their shot lines it would be a fantastic restoration and about all they would need to do with tree removal.


Take a look at aerials from 1925 and 1938 as they relate to the 12th hole.

Take a look at the same aerials of the 2nd and 14th hole.

Substantive tree work, beyond a sight line needs to be done.

Sight lines aren't laser like, they have flanking margins, and that's what you're failing to understand, especially in the context of holes like # 2, # 12 and # 14.


Frankly, you've probably never even done a study of where all the bunkers and their shot lines are.

I discovered abandoned bunker that you didn't know existed, so, I know all about sight lines and "bunkers gone wild"


That's what I mean about someone breezing in there and just looking at an early aerial in the front hall and gratuitously suggesting that should be used as the blueprint to return to. That is not what one might call research oriented and it's not informed that's for damn sure! In other words there really is a whole lot more to  know than just that aerial photograph!

If you think that one photo is the entirety for the basis and foundation of my position, you're truely misguided and misinformed on this issue.


I have no doubt if you'd researched the creation and evolution of the architecture and maintenance of that course over the last ten years as I have you would not make a suggestion about that 1925 aerial and tree removal using it as a total blueprint or goal that you have. To go back to that could create some problems out there someone like you apparently couldn't even imagine.

LIST THE PROBLEMS !


What you should do is stick to making suggestion like this on a course you know the entire architectural history of such as GCGC.

That's the only issue I have with you about Pine Valley. It's not about tree removal or no tree removal at all. I think you understand I've suggested and advocated for tree removal there for years and they've been doing it for a few years now which you probably aren't even aware of either.


I'm keenly aware of it.  And,
I draw a great deal of inner satisfaction from it. ;D



TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2009, 03:50:08 PM »
Patrick:

With the way you carry on with the trees at Pine Valley, despite the information I've put on here in the past there is no reason at all that I should help you out with it again. If you can't pay enough attention to the details or if you couldn't figure it out the first time there shouldn't be a second time. You go down there yourself and get involved in ten years of research. Perhaps then you just may realize that your suggestion to that club to use that 1925 aerial as a blueprint for present and future tree-removal is exactly what those who truly understand the evolution of that course already know----eg totally counter-productive.

It makes about as much sense as a suggestion that they should burn down all the trees on that entire site and replant about 500,000 thousand sapling and then in about twenty years they could have the site looking again about the way it was when Crump first found it.

Who knows, maybe by that time somebody will have come up with a growth retardant they can put on about half a million trees so they will never grow higher than they were in 1913 or even 1925.  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2009, 03:55:57 PM »
TEPaul,

Height isn't the issue, over population and failure to be vigilant are the problems.

Please examine the 1925 and 1938 photos of the first hole.

Then you can examine # 2, # 12 and # 14 later.

We'll get to the balance of the holes when we have more time, or better yet, after we play a round together at PV.

That would make for an interesting day.
Play a round.
Study the 1925, 1938 and later aerials,
then, go back on a walking tour of the golf course.

I'm in if you're in.

The only question is, who do we select as the referee/judge and jury ?

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2009, 04:20:03 PM »
Patrick:

I've studied everything you've ever seen and a lot more for about a decade now, so why would you think I need to do it again? If it's because you think I might somehow agree with your notion and suggestion of that 1925 aerial as the ideal blueprint for tree removal on that course that just isn't goint to happen for it makes no sense for reasons you apparently are neither aware of or understand despite the fact I've been over a lot of them on here before.

The ideal blueprint for tree removal on that course is what I've said on here about a dozen times----eg simply get rid of the trees on that course surrounding the bunkers and their sight lines. I've been there for years and looked at it all from every angle that way and you haven't. That's a lot of what Ott and I used to do down there in our spare time. That's the perfect solution to the tree encroachment at Pine Valley, period, end of story.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2009, 04:31:32 PM »
TEPaul,

You can't ignore the variables.

The inside corner of # 1 being a perfect example.

That was all a big sand bunker/waste area in 1925, 1938 and 1964.

Today, it's a forest.

As to sight line, whose sight line, the +4 handicap, the 6 handicap, the 16 handicap or the 24 handicap ?

It's not as finite a project as you think

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2009, 04:32:46 PM »
Well, at least the both of you are willing to be convinced.  :o
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2009, 04:44:10 PM »
"TEPaul,

You can't ignore the variables.

The inside corner of # 1 being a perfect example."


Pat:

When I say the best blueprint for tree removal there is to get the trees surrounding the bunkers and their sightlines out, maybe you just don't have much idea what I'm talking about. Think about that again and try to imagine it; even do it hole by hole if you have to. Then you may understand what I've been talking about on here for years.

My point to you with that 1925 aerial suggestion is there are some areas of that course that were cleared many years ago when Crump was working on the routing that were never used for holes and they have no bunkering or their sightlines. Those areas show up on old aerials such as that 1925 and even more recent ones.

Why don't you see if you can figure out what they are and where they are and even more interestingly why they were cleared (for what potential holes) and get back to me on it.  ;)

This all started over a decade ago when I found out about the Dallin aerials at the Hagley. I went down there for my own course but I happened to ask them what they had for Pine Valley. They have more for PV than any other course and I told Ott and he went down there and bought copies of all of them. He loved going over those aerials endlessly picking out something here and there and then one time he just asked me: "Why is this area here cleared like that or that one cleared like that? So I started going over the documentary history of the course from the beginning on into the late twenties and it's all there; all the stories that explain what I'm trying to tell you about a lot of the clearing one sees on those old aerials that doesn't have to do with the bunkering on the course or its sight-lines or even with any of the present holes.

I've been through them on here before but apparently you must not have been paying attention.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 05:00:38 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2009, 05:34:14 PM »

As to sight line, whose sight line, the +4 handicap, the 6 handicap, the 16 handicap or the 24 handicap ?


When you asked a week or so ago if the higher handicappers have a better inherent understanding of golf course architecture I didn't realize it was because you thought they could shape their eyesight.sightlines in something other than a straight line...does this impact their use of rengefinders?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2009, 06:49:51 PM »
Heres the thing, Crump isn't alive anymore. In fact, he didn't even finish the course partly because he was so unsettled about what he wanted.  So NOBODY can be sure of what he would have intended  for the long term.  Trying to say you know is a fool's game and major problem with the entire idea of "renovation" in general.  The question then becomes what is best for for the playability and conditioning of Pine Valley right now and for the future rather than trying to match precisely some static dream state of the course thought to exist god knows when.  If the membership does its homework and places the stewardship of the course above all else then they should be able to come up with the right answers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2009, 07:00:41 PM »

As to sight line, whose sight line, the +4 handicap, the 6 handicap, the 16 handicap or the 24 handicap ?


When you asked a week or so ago if the higher handicappers have a better inherent understanding of golf course architecture I didn't realize it was because you thought they could shape their eyesight.sightlines in something other than a straight line...does this impact their use of rengefinders?


Jim,

I'll attribute your obtuseness to a lack of sleep due to exponentially expanded duties associated with additional offspring.

When a higher handicap used to hit their tee shot about 175 yards on # 1, they could cut the corner, taking the directional shortcut to the green, thus, that was their sightline.  Today, that line is blocked by the forest of trees that's been allowed to grow in that formerly sandy expanse, subsequent to 1964.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2009, 10:33:41 PM »
Tom Paul,

What is the reason the obvious trees surrounding the bunkers haven't been removed? Is there actually opposition within the powers that be?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 10:50:16 AM by Sean Leary »

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2009, 08:40:38 AM »
Sean:

The way Pine Valley works and has always worked is that there aren't a lot of "powers-that-be". The club forever has been run almost entirely by its president of which there have only been five in the club's 95 year history.

What is the reason they haven't removed all the trees surrounding the bunkers or within their sightlines? I have no real idea. I don't belong to Pine Valley and they don't consult me on what they do. They don't consult Patrick Mucci either or anyone else on this website.

I don't even know if they plan to remove all the trees from existing bunkers and their sight-lines; that has only been my own suggestion, for what it's worth which to them may or may not be much. I have no idea what they think of it, but I do know they have removed some trees surrounding some bunkers on some holes in the last five years or so, and to me and I believe to them it has been considered a real success for a number of reasons. For those reasons it would seem that is their intention but how far they go with that suggestion or idea I have no idea.

I did hear a few years ago from what I consider to be a reliable source that the plan was to remove app. 700 trees for ten years. That is 7,000 trees but it may not be just those surrounding existing bunkers and their sightlines. It may include other trees on that enormous property.

7,000 trees removed is a lot of trees and a lot more than Oakmont, for instance, which recently removed just about all the trees on the course itself and certainly in play. But Oakmont may've had about 4,000-5,000 trees on that course generally and sort of in play but Pine Valley has and always has had probably hundreds of thousands of trees on the course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2009, 08:49:50 AM »
Sean:

The way Pine Valley works and has always worked is that there aren't a lot of "powers-that-be". The club forever has been run almost entirely by its president of which there have only been five in the club's 95 year history.

What is the reason they haven't removed all the trees surrounding the bunkers or within their sightlines? I have no real idea. I don't belong to Pine Valley and they don't consult me on what they do. They don't consult Patrick Mucci either or anyone else on this website.

I don't even know if they plan to remove all the trees from existing bunkers and their sight-lines; that has only been my own suggestion, for what it's worth which to them may or may not be much. I have no idea what they think of it, but I do know they have removed some trees surrounding some bunkers on some holes in the last five years or so, and to me and I believe to them it has been considered a real success for a number of reasons. For those reasons it would seem that is their intention but how far they go with that suggestion or idea I have no idea.

I did hear a few years ago from what I consider to be a reliable source that the plan was to remove app. 700 trees for ten years. That is 7,000 trees but it may not be just those surrounding existing bunkers and their sightlines. It may include other trees on that enormous property.

7,000 trees removed is a lot of trees and a lot more than Oakmont, for instance, which recently removed just about all the trees on the course itself and certainly in play. But Oakmont may've had about 4,000-5,000 trees on that course generally and sort of in play but Pine Valley has and always has had probably hundreds of thousands of trees on the course.

Tom

My thoughts as well.  I generally don't like a lot of trees blocking interior views or blocking paths to the greens, but whether or not this is the right sort of attitude for PV I can't say.  Its my understanding that to create good interior views at PV would require serious financial commitment on the part of the club.  So perhaps at PV it isn't really feasible regardless of the benefits of mega tree removal.  Though I do find it curious that a club would let bunkers be crowded out by trees.  PV may be a glaring example of this, but it is by no means limited to PV. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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