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JESII

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #100 on: February 09, 2009, 04:06:58 PM »
Tom,

Haven't you, in the past, referenced an original idea of Crump's to let 18 different people design their own hole?

I wonder if that notion of creating originality bled over into a search for solitude and isolation.

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #101 on: February 09, 2009, 05:07:27 PM »
Sully:

That was an idea that was floated in the very beginning. It was actually included as late as to be in Howard Perrin's (the first president of PV---it seems even though Crump apparently owned the place at that point he never wanted to be the president) solicitation letter for membership. The plan included in that letter was to get 200-250 members for $100 each but he mentioned they seemed to have 18 who would kick in $1,000 each and each design a hole. It seems like that was a financial idea to generate construction funds. That did get dropped right around that time however, when it appears Crump was already in the routing process (we have his initial topo routing map that had a March 1913 surveyor's date on it) and was about to rough shape at least the first four holes and the fifth tee position that seemed to be done enough for Tillinghast to be able to describe them in print in pretty good detail right around that time.

I don't know if it means anything, Sully, but that solicitation letter of Perrin's when he mentioned 18 people who might design a hole each was date April 1, 1913 (April Fool's Day).  ;)

JESII

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #102 on: February 09, 2009, 05:14:49 PM »
Tom,

Do you think of the isoaltion at Pine Valley as a key component to its greatness?

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #103 on: February 09, 2009, 05:28:38 PM »
Jeff:

As for your last post all I can tell you is Pine Valley has pretty much been completely run by the president of the club (again, of which there have only be five in 95 years) as much as any golf club I'm aware of. The president seems to have the ability via the by-laws or perhaps simply through age-old precedent to act on his own with that club and course I suppose if he chooses to. If he consults with others about certain things I'm not aware of it and would never want to ask or mention it on here----other than of course I think most everyone is aware that Tom Fazio is PV's consulting architect and has been for years. Mr. Fazio doesn't just consult, he has been a member for years and on the club board too.

Gordon Brewer is the current president and has been for it seems like maybe ten years now. Mr. Brewer, by the way, just received the USGA's Bob Jones award a few days ago and he definitely has a long and impressive career in golf on all kinds of levels, and it's great to see him receive that award, he surely deserves it, in my opinion. I've known Gordon for a long time now and played quite a bit of golf against him and with him on teams and such and I did know the previous presidents Mel Dickinson well and the president before him, Ernie Ransome.

But again, I do not belong to PV, never have and I've never discussed matters to do with the club or course with any of them, at least not officially or formally.  There was a time maybe four years ago at a 2-3 day tournament down there when I was standing talking to Pete Dye who was Gordon's partner and standing next to Pete. For some reason the subject of the trees on the left of #12 in those old bunkers came up. Pete said something like; "Jesus, Gordon, why don't you get a bunch of chainsaws out and get those things outta there?" Well, that got my attention but I've known Pete for years and I guess I thought that was just Pete being Pete (particularly as he'd just allowed as he thought the greens of Seminole were the worst he was aware of with a couple of Seminole members standing next to him ;) ). I hope I didn't put my foot in it on that 12 hole item at that point but knowing me I probably did.  ;)





"Tom,
Do you think of the isolation at Pine Valley as a key component to its greatness?"


Sully:

Yes I do indeed even though that does not mean I do not definitely believe that all the trees that surround all the bunkers down there and their sightlines should be removed. I doubt many on here who are not really familiar with that course appreciate how much just that would restore to most all those holes and the course the original huge scale and grandeur of the course and its bunkering and sand areas.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 05:43:46 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #104 on: February 09, 2009, 05:55:27 PM »
Sully:

I once did it on here anyway, sort of, when J. Ott was still around and viewing this website and sometimes participating, and so I would be willing to go hole by hole as to what I would suggest re: tree removal if someone down there who had to do with the place seriously asked for my opinion on it.

Would you?  ;)

It was so interesting going over this kind of thing with John Ott. We would talk about it on the phone a lot and when down there we would just get in his cart sometimes with his dog in the cart or following and go out there all over the place looking at things like the trees, the bunkers and their sightlines. Sometimes he would heartily agree with what I was saying, sometimes I would say something and he wouldn't say anything at all. I think we were on the same page with most all of it, though, and he just loved talking about everything to do with the place. My God, he loved that golf course and that place. I guess he lived on the 9th for over thirty five years. I miss him a lot these days.

There was only one tree I disagreed with him on. He just hated that huge tree on the right about 125 yards from the 15th green (although he also hated what he called "The Sanger tree" down to the left of #4 green  but that's been gone now for over five years). He just hated that tree on #15 and always wanted to see it go. That one I would not suggest taking out. I think it definitely adds to the hole and the intensity of the 2nd and sometimes 3rd shot. I think it really enhances the risk up on the left side on the 2nd shot just because it's down there on the right as it is and a lot of golfers steer too wide left because of it.

Matter of fact, when I think through the years, it's pretty interesting what used to be there and has been gone now since the last five years or so. When it comes to trees on a course how quickly you forget where some of them once were.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 06:25:18 PM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #105 on: February 09, 2009, 06:14:23 PM »
Jeff:

As for your last post all I can tell you is Pine Valley has pretty much been completely run by the president of the club (again, of which there have only be five in 95 years) as much as any golf club I'm aware of. The president seems to have the ability via the by-laws or perhaps simply through age-old precedent to act on his own with that club and course I suppose if he chooses to. If he consults with others about certain things I'm not aware of it and would never want to ask or mention it on here----other than of course I think most everyone is aware that Tom Fazio is PV's consulting architect and has been for years. Mr. Fazio doesn't just consult, he has been a member for years and on the club board too.

Gordon Brewer is the current president and has been for it seems like maybe ten years now. Mr. Brewer, by the way, just received the USGA's Bob Jones award a few days ago and he definitely has a long and impressive career in golf on all kinds of levels, and it's great to see him receive that award, he surely deserves it, in my opinion. I've known Gordon for a long time now and played quite a bit of golf against him and with him on teams and such and I did know the previous presidents Mel Dickinson well and the president before him, Ernie Ransome.

But again, I do not belong to PV, never have and I've never discussed matters to do with the club or course with any of them, at least not officially or formally.  There was a time maybe four years ago at a 2-3 day tournament down there when I was standing talking to Pete Dye who was Gordon's partner and standing next to Pete. For some reason the subject of the trees on the left of #12 in those old bunkers came up. Pete said something like; "Jesus, Gordon, why don't you get a bunch of chainsaws out and get those things outta there?" Well, that got my attention but I've known Pete for years and I guess I thought that was just Pete being Pete (particularly as he'd just allowed as he thought the greens of Seminole were the worst he was aware of with a couple of Seminole members standing next to him ;) ). I hope I didn't put my foot in it on that 12 hole item at that point but knowing me I probably did.  ;)





 

Tom,thanks for taking the time to explain.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2009, 09:09:12 PM »

Pat,

You continue to rail on about desparate needs of tree removal yet when I asked for specificholes that need more than trees removed to the outer edges of the bunkers you came up empty. Which holes need removal beyond the outer edges of the bunkers?


Jim,

It's one of the dumbest questions I've ever been asked.

Should I say, the third, fifth and ninth pine to the right of the elbow on # 1, 10 paces from the edge of the fairway ?

The answer I PREVIOUSLY provided you is THE answer, I would have to do a hole by hole analysis, not try to recollect which tree/s on which hole needs to go.

You were the one who denied that a golfer could be in the left side of the fairway on # 17 and not be blocked out by the invasive pine trees.
You were clearly and grossly incorrect.

It wouldn't take me long to establish which trees/shrubs/underbrush need to go.  All PV needs to do is call me and I'll take the time to visit and assist with the project.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2009, 09:13:58 PM »

A question to TEPaul and/or Pat Mucci.Is it possible that PV's membership hasn't cleared the trees because they prefer the golf course that way as opposed to early photos?

Couldn't it be more a case of proactive acceptance rather than benign neglect?

NO.

If you understood the nature of the invasive intrusion of the vegetation
you wouldn't ask that question.

When trees/shrubs/underbrush start growing IN bunkers and THROUGH bunkers, impeding the golfer's ability to swing at the ball, that's not proactive acceptance, that's benign neglect.

The fact that PV began "uncovering/clearing" these bunkers and the areas around them is evidence that their initial loss wasn't due to proactive acceptance.



TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2009, 09:47:21 PM »
"NO.
If you understood the nature of the invasive intrusion of the vegetation
you wouldn't ask that question.

When trees/shrubs/underbrush start growing IN bunkers and THROUGH bunkers, impeding the golfer's ability to swing at the ball, that's not proactive acceptance, that's benign neglect.

The fact that PV began "uncovering/clearing" these bunkers and the areas around them is evidence that their initial loss wasn't due to proactive acceptance."



Now you just wait a minute, Patrick Mucci! What you just said there to Jeff Evensky is that you seem to agree with my years-long suggestion that the trees surrounding the bunkering and their sightlines is the ideal prescription for tree removal at Pine Valley!

DO I NEED TO REMIND YOU AGAIN THAT IS IN NO WAY AND NO WISE THE SAME THING AS USING THAT 1925 AERIAL AS A BLUEPRINT FOR TREE REMOVAL THESE DAYS AT PINE VALLEY??


Read AGAIN what Jeff Evensky asked and if you don't understand it as you obviously didn't the first time, then read it again and again and again until you do understand it---and THEN try to ask a vaguely appropriate question that makes a semblance of sense.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 09:48:56 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #109 on: February 09, 2009, 10:04:02 PM »
TEPaul,

Could you cite, with specificity, on a hole by hole basis, starting on the first hole, the areas on the 1925 aerials where you wouldn't return the course to that configuration ?

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #110 on: February 09, 2009, 10:35:35 PM »
"TEPaul,
Could you cite, with specificity, on a hole by hole basis, starting on the first hole, the areas on the 1925 aerials where you wouldn't return the course to that configuration?"


Patrick:

Of course I could. I would have no problem at all doing that with COMPLETE detail and specifiity. Matter of fact, I have basically done it before on here in a relatively general way but apparently you missed that or simply didn't understand it.

But I am not the one who proposed using that 1925 aerial as a blueprint for tree removal on that golf course. As even you must be aware by now I do not in any way agree with that 1925 aerial as a blueprint for tree removal today! You were the only one who has done that and suggested that, continuously and constantly!

So, it is you who should CITE with SPECIFITY, on a hole by hole basis, starting on the first hole, those areas on the 1925 aerial where you WOULD return the course to that configuration! ;) And just as importantly WHY! Of course, as you have done in the past, you could simply say, "all of it", and completely obviate a need for a hole by hole analysis or explanation but to me that would only, AGAIN, indicate how little you know and understand about the architectural history of that golf course.

EX: You may think you have some idea where Crump cleared to look at landforms for holes that were never used (if in fact that ever even occured to you ;) ), OR you may think some of us THINK you know THAT but I very seriously doubt you know any of that and so now I'm asking you to show me and the rest of us whether you know that or whether you don't.

SAVY, Patrick? SHOWTIME!!   ;D
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 10:47:45 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2009, 08:17:03 AM »

You were the one who denied that a golfer could be in the left side of the fairway on # 17 and not be blocked out by the invasive pine trees.
You were clearly and grossly incorrect.



Pat,

If you recall (I know, unlikely), what I said was the left 5 yards of fairway on #17 left you obstructed if you were trying to hit a straight, low shot to the left third of the green...and I was right.

Our real disagreement on that issue was whether or not the trees blocking a shot was appropriate. You seemed to think fairness was to be upheld and that everyone should be able to get to any pin at any time...even if their tee shot on a 330 yard hole ended up in the left most corner of a 60 yard widr fairway when they should be aiming for the right third of the fairway when the hole is cut left. That person missed his target by about 40 yards (very possibly with something other than a driver) and you think they should have a clear, straight shot to any position they want...

As I have said to you from the begining, I believe the course would improve visually if the trees were removed to the outer boundaries of the bunkers but I do not believe there would be much strategic impact...#12 notwistanding, Cirba!




Sully:

I once did it on here anyway, sort of, when J. Ott was still around and viewing this website and sometimes participating, and so I would be willing to go hole by hole as to what I would suggest re: tree removal if someone down there who had to do with the place seriously asked for my opinion on it.

Would you?  ;)


Tom,

I look at this board much the same as sitting around the 19th hole talking golf. In that respect I enjoy talking about holes and courses and what's good and not so good about them. I haven't been to all that many courses that get much play on here but fortunately I have played Pine Valley, Merion, Shinnecock and Seminole enough each to have formed an opinion, and I don't mind sharing them in the right context or venue.

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2009, 09:04:59 AM »
Sully:

I guess I should take that as a yes. If so I'll start on the first hole. It will contain some very interesting info, particularly from Crump's good friend, Father Simon Carr, about what else Crump apparently wanted to do with the first hole but, if one is familiar with the details of it, did not live to get to his additional ideas on it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:07:08 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2009, 09:23:58 AM »

Pat,

You continue to rail on about desparate needs of tree removal yet when I asked for specificholes that need more than trees removed to the outer edges of the bunkers you came up empty. Which holes need removal beyond the outer edges of the bunkers?


Jim,

It's one of the dumbest questions I've ever been asked.

Should I say, the third, fifth and ninth pine to the right of the elbow on # 1, 10 paces from the edge of the fairway ?



No Pat, I would like you to tell me where you would request more tree removal than to the outer edges of the bunkers.


Bob Crosby suggested an interesting thing earlier in the thread, he mentioned the potential view from the back edge of the 12th green. He said you could see the rest of the back nine (which I think you could) and would also create a skyline effect for pitches into #12 which I also think would be neat...

As you said at that point though, there were trees pretty thick right there in 1925 so we can't really justify that suggestion in the context of a restoration can we...even if it would be really cool for a couple of reasons...




Tom,

Sure, fire away. 

Tell me something, did they mention anything about wanting the higher handicapper to be able to bunt it out there 175 on #1 and then be able to fire at the green from about 210 over that corner of sandy waste? I ask because Pat Mucci suggested the loss of that opportunity is the primary offense perpetrated by the trees on the inside corner of #1...

Brent Hutto

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »
Tell me something, did they mention anything about wanting the higher handicapper to be able to bunt it out there 175 on #1 and then be able to fire at the green from about 210 over that corner of sandy waste? I ask because Pat Mucci suggested the loss of that opportunity is the primary offense perpetrated by the trees on the inside corner of #1...

Heh, heh. I know that "strategy" well. Let me tell you, a high-handicapper who does the 175 yard drive and attempts the 210-yard 3-wood approach isn't going to be deterred by a few trees. We'll just curve that ball right around 'em and have a go at the green anyway.

Once you're solidly delusional, there's no need to stop with a stoopid club selection when you also attempt a stoopid shot shape!  :P And when it's the first hole of the day that just makes it all the more attractive.

JMEvensky

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Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2009, 09:30:39 AM »
Sully:

I guess I should take that as a yes. If so I'll start on the first hole. It will contain some very interesting info, particularly from Crump's good friend, Father Simon Carr, about what else Crump apparently wanted to do with the first hole but, if one is familiar with the details of it, did not live to get to his additional ideas on it.

For those of us who enjoy your stream of consciousness memories intertwined with the less interesting "golf" stuff,please don't scrimp on the details.I ,for one,would like to know what Fern and Dring thought about the 1925 aerial.

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2009, 09:52:15 AM »
Jeff:

How in God's Green Earth did you know who Fern and Dring were?  ;)

I remember back in 1963 (I think it was the day before Fern's big and infamous Deb party) when Dring had about enough of the goings-on around the mansion and he and two of his buddies, a guy named Fufu and another named Marmar got into one of those little VW Bugs to go over to the beach club in Southampton. The problem was each one of them tipped the scales at something over 375 lbs. You should've seen that little VW Bug as it wove down the street with its wheels splayed out at about a 45 degree angle!  ;)

By the way, Jeff, I haven't spoken to Fern in something like 25 years but I recently copped her number down in PB. The guy who owns Lilly Pulitzer asked me to get in touch with her to drum up some of the early history of that company.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:02:40 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2009, 10:03:16 AM »
Jeff:

How in God's Green Earth did you know who Fern and Dring were?  ;)

I remember back in 1963 (I think it was the day before Fern's big and infamous Deb party) when Dring had about enough of the goings-on around the mansion and he and two of his buddies, a guy named Fufu and another named Marmar got into one of those little VW Bugs to go over to the beach club. The problem was each one of them tipped the scales at something over 375 lbs. You should've seen that little VW Bug as it wove down the street with its wheels splayed out at about a 45 degree angle!  ;)

A 4-some of Fern,Dring,Fufu,and Marmar?Anybody else tells a story like this,I'm calling BS.

A serious question:You have one,last round of golf to play.Do you invite Mucci or Marmar(assuming they're not the same person)?

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2009, 10:06:28 AM »
Jeff:

To your last question---I'd definitely arrange that with those guys and Mucci but the only problem is I just can't imagine how those three guys could still be alive. Fern's still around though and I'd get Mucci a game with her but I just don't remember Fern ever being interested in golf. I'll tell you one thing, though, Fern and her friends were all about +2s at sunbathing! They were real competitive at it too. The real trick was who could get the back of the knees and the armpits tanned the best.

I've got to tell you, they really were some spectacular gals.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:15:23 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #119 on: February 10, 2009, 10:20:03 AM »
They were real competitive at it too. The real trick was who could get the back of the knees and the armpits tanned the best.

If they could get armpits and backs of knees tanned simultaneously,they were also +2's at being limber.

Please post pictures(of Fern,et al-not Marmar).


TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2009, 10:48:43 AM »
Jeff:

I don't know how to post pictures and I don't have any.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:09:58 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #121 on: February 10, 2009, 10:58:04 AM »
Point taken.We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #122 on: February 10, 2009, 11:17:51 AM »
"Point taken.We now return to our regularly scheduled programming."


Excellent idea.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:10:51 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2009, 12:45:33 PM »
"Tom,

Sure, fire away. 

Tell me something, did they mention anything about wanting the higher handicapper to be able to bunt it out there 175 on #1 and then be able to fire at the green from about 210 over that corner of sandy waste? I ask because Pat Mucci suggested the loss of that opportunity is the primary offense perpetrated by the trees on the inside corner of #1..."



Sully:

It seems to me what with the available documents left about what Crump and Pine Valley was trying to accomplish on the course and on the opening hole that it is basically in the context of a good player of that day and not the handicap player. As you know sometimes Pine Valley gets criticized for that as an example of a course that's not "Ideal" because it does not (and perhaps was not ever intended to) accommodate the shorter or higher handicap player well or much at all.

I for one, admit to that at least in my opinion, but I also add----so what? It's pretty well documented that Crump did not want to accommodate weaker and higher handicap players on that course (and that is certainly confirmed by the joke he made to one of his higher handicap friends about it) and that it appears he didn't even want them around.

He was trying to make a golf course with architecture pretty much for the good player as basically what was visualized as a "training ground" for Philadelphia players to be better and more successful competitively and ultimately as champions both here and regionally and nationally.

I don't think Crump gave a damn about this prescription of an "ideal" course for ALL golfers even though that notion and concept was very much around the philosophical world of golf architecture at that time. That was never his intention with Pine Valley and I think it showed that, just as he intended it to.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 12:48:04 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Splendid Isolation--The Pine Valley Syndrome
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2009, 02:08:54 PM »

As to sight line, whose sight line, the +4 handicap, the 6 handicap, the 16 handicap or the 24 handicap ?


When you asked a week or so ago if the higher handicappers have a better inherent understanding of golf course architecture I didn't realize it was because you thought they could shape their eyesight.sightlines in something other than a straight line...does this impact their use of rengefinders?


Jim,

I'll attribute your obtuseness to a lack of sleep due to exponentially expanded duties associated with additional offspring.

When a higher handicap used to hit their tee shot about 175 yards on # 1, they could cut the corner, taking the directional shortcut to the green, thus, that was their sightline.  Today, that line is blocked by the forest of trees that's been allowed to grow in that formerly sandy expanse, subsequent to 1964.


Tommy,

My question was referencing this brilliant suggestion by Mr. Mucci that the guy that hits it 175 off the tee will be firing it over the corner on his next shot if only those damned trees were not in his way...see Brent Hutto's post after mine (about 6 or 7 posts ago) for the perfect response...

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