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Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 03:03:25 PM »
While a cross bunker may affect the average golfer more, wouldn't it also add more interest to the hole for him?  Many players (myself included on most days)  have no choice but to aim straight down the fairway so that an inaccurate shot has a chance at staying safe.  A cross hazard forces me to think about what to do rather than just taking out my driver and just trying to hit the fairway.

I think it's important to give the average golfer challenging (while not too penal) shots, because they make the game more interesting for him.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2009, 03:37:33 PM »
I don't see what's wrong with cross bunkers. At least you can lay up behind them if you can't carry them. It's not like these swamps that demand a 200 yard carry with no lay up area.  Face up to your ability and play what is in front of you. They are a challenge to be negotiated. With out them you have an open freeway/muni course.

Sorry, seen too many classic courses destroyed for the hacker golfer.

Ralph,

Actually, Ross, Thomas and the others, except for Tillie, who liked the Hell's Half Acre - based their whole design philosphy on avoiding the cross bunkers of their earlier era.  Early american courses were littered with them.  It wasn't like RTJ took them out on classic courses.

Ian,

Let me ask you this - if a gca put pinch hazards on both sides of the fw, basically forcing you to play an accurate shot, wouldn't most of us critisize that as one dimensional and uninteresting?  Similarly, a dictated shot that limits distance isn't as inherently interesting as the angled bunker where the challenge to carry is combined with the selection of line.  Its grey vs black and white.

That is why I think cross bunkers are not as conceptually strong as angled ones.  Now, if I found a natural spot for one, I would use it, just as I think the occaisonal use of pinched fw's is great for a change of pace.  And, that is probably why we see such limited use of cross bunkers - they are at best change of pace, break the formula type design items.

As always, JMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brent Hutto

Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 03:53:05 PM »
Let me ask you this - if a gca put pinch hazards on both sides of the fw, basically forcing you to play an accurate shot, wouldn't most of us critisize that as one dimensional and uninteresting?  Similarly, a dictated shot that limits distance isn't as inherently interesting as the angled bunker where the challenge to carry is combined with the selection of line.  Its grey vs black and white.

That is why I think cross bunkers are not as conceptually strong as angled ones.  Now, if I found a natural spot for one, I would use it, just as I think the occaisonal use of pinched fw's is great for a change of pace.  And, that is probably why we see such limited use of cross bunkers - they are at best change of pace, break the formula type design items.

Nail.
Head.

Jeff.

Thanks.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 03:58:17 PM »
I don't see what's wrong with cross bunkers. At least you can lay up behind them if you can't carry them. It's not like these swamps that demand a 200 yard carry with no lay up area.  Face up to your ability and play what is in front of you. They are a challenge to be negotiated. With out them you have an open freeway/muni course.



That is why I think cross bunkers are not as conceptually strong as angled ones.  Now, if I found a natural spot for one, I would use it, just as I think the occaisonal use of pinched fw's is great for a change of pace.  And, that is probably why we see such limited use of cross bunkers - they are at best change of pace, break the formula type design items.

As always, JMHO.

Jeff

I really don't like the phrase "not as conceptually strong as angles ones".  To me, it all depends on how and where any hazard is placed to determine its merit.  Just stating that one sort of hazard is conceptually stronger than another is very misleading because there is a time and place for all hazards.  I do like the two examples I gave because of the real risk/reward factor if that comes into play in certain situations.  One day they can be ignored and on another day they are in your face.  To me, this can be part of what makes a conceptually strong hazard.  

To carry your example on, why are pinching fairway bunkers used much less than cross bunkers?  I bet this is even easily true of yourself.  Both seem to fit your conceptually inferior model.

Matt

I understand what you are saying, but the aspect of "uncompromising demand" seems sacrificed in your example.  One can play a putter through this "cross bunker".  

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:07:05 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 03:59:38 PM »

Ian,

Let me ask you this - if a gca put pinch hazards on both sides of the fw, basically forcing you to play an accurate shot, wouldn't most of us critisize that as one dimensional and uninteresting?  Similarly, a dictated shot that limits distance isn't as inherently interesting as the angled bunker where the challenge to carry is combined with the selection of line.  Its grey vs black and white.

That is why I think cross bunkers are not as conceptually strong as angled ones.  Now, if I found a natural spot for one, I would use it, just as I think the occaisonal use of pinched fw's is great for a change of pace.  And, that is probably why we see such limited use of cross bunkers - they are at best change of pace, break the formula type design items.

As always, JMHO.

Thanks Jeff, that does make more sense.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 04:09:27 PM »
Sean,

I am interests, conceptually at least, in your interest in conceptual golf course design thinking.....

As anyone here knows, I believe in having a strong philosophy to guide design. I understand that the fear is being so dogmatic that I miss perhaps great opportunities - like a steep bank with a cross bunker, but I think I can use them when the land calls for them. (see enclosed photo)

I do think there are times where a cross hazard can induce that temptation - whether creek (more common because of enviro regs these days, so we see fewer cross bunkers) or other type.  For instance, if a creek exists 300-320 from the back tees and the tee shot is down hill and down wind, it can become really dicey to know whether to lay back a bit or hit a full driver.  On a normally crosswind hole, that cross bunker would typically play the same every day.  Ditto if downhill and upwind where you have to figure out how much each cancels the other, if the cross hazard is placed just right. 

But, distances vary so much from player to player, and for each player, from shot to shot, that placing the cross bunker is at best a low percentage play - whereas building a long angled bunker can guarantee that the designed in challenge will be there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 04:45:37 PM »
Sean,

I am interests, conceptually at least, in your interest in conceptual golf course design thinking.....

As anyone here knows, I believe in having a strong philosophy to guide design. I understand that the fear is being so dogmatic that I miss perhaps great opportunities - like a steep bank with a cross bunker, but I think I can use them when the land calls for them. (see enclosed photo)

I do think there are times where a cross hazard can induce that temptation - whether creek (more common because of enviro regs these days, so we see fewer cross bunkers) or other type.  For instance, if a creek exists 300-320 from the back tees and the tee shot is down hill and down wind, it can become really dicey to know whether to lay back a bit or hit a full driver.  On a normally crosswind hole, that cross bunker would typically play the same every day.  Ditto if downhill and upwind where you have to figure out how much each cancels the other, if the cross hazard is placed just right. 

But, distances vary so much from player to player, and for each player, from shot to shot, that placing the cross bunker is at best a low percentage play - whereas building a long angled bunker can guarantee that the designed in challenge will be there.

Jeff

I know what you are saying, but sometimes, as my original quote makes it clear, there should be an uncompromising demand placed on the player.  What attracts to cross bunkers in this instance is the fact that a risk can be taken without losing a ball.  If one is real lucky or good, he can even recover for a par as is very much the case in the two examples I gave.  They are do or don't die shots.  In any case, I was never trying to compare the cross bunker turned into diagonal to the old fashioned cross bunker.  I think both have their place and can be equally effective design-wise - at least so far as the designer's intentions go. 

Another one of my favourite cross hazards is on the 13th at Burnham.  Technically, the path isn't a hazard, but so what, it may be better for folks not raking it.  Anyway, there is absolutely no way to avoid this path about 275 off the mens tee.  The great thing about making it over is that the green can usually be seen for a go in two.  If one doesn't make it over, he potentially has a disaster of a lie, but not so bad where it should take more than two to recover and earn a 6.  Of course, if one lays up the second is blind over the path.  The really weird thing about this path is that I have never seen anybody take a penalty drop.  Everybody wants the challenge of the unusual recovery which seems to fly in the face of folks saying that high cappers are afraid of this sort of shot.  This is why I was very disappointed when it was recently tarted up and made more narrow.  Sure, it entices more people to go for it, but at the cost of the penalty for failure being that much less severe as it is mush easier to take a penalty drop off the path now.  One more bit of detachment from the roots of the game.  Not at all good thing if you ask me, especially when we consider that it isn't often we are asked to hit these sorts of shots.

Perhaps this is the key element to a cross bunker, earning a view or going blind.  That is certainly a conceptually strong design idea.  But then, one has to accept that blindness is a positive attribute! 

Before I depart, we have come full circle.  I can hear you telling yourself, what about the guy who can't make the carry off the tee?  Well, go back and read the original quote.  Can you refute it?

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 04:56:51 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 06:00:39 PM »
Sean,

I was waiting for you to compare it to the vaunted Detroit defense standing them up at the blue line.  At least, that would be in terms I understand!

As to the carry off the tee, it would be better again, on a par 5. IMHO.  But, I have no problem with it. As we both know, some golfers would.  A forced (rather than optional) layup just isn't as much fun as a booming drive.  Perhaps that path is more accepted for just that reason - there is penalty but its so thin that its worth taking the chance, and its not really dictated? I don't know, since I am not familiar with the hole.

Again, no problem if used once in a while when it really cries out for it.  Forcing one in the landscape? I'm not so sure its worth it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2009, 06:13:11 PM »
They would take some serious consideration in how far along the centerline these bunkers extend - IMHO they need to be well short of "Hell's half acre" for average play reasons, but perhaps thicker than a Raynor strip bunker.  Otherwise, the range of distances they challenge is effectively too limited...

Jeff - I think this is the key consideration, and the trick to making cross bunkers worth their weight.

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2009, 06:19:55 PM »
One of the best cross bunkers I've seen is on the par-5 15th at Hirono.

The hole doglegs fairly sharply to the left on the tee shot, so that being close enough to comfortably clear the cross bunker is more about keeping your tee shot left, instead of just hitting a long drive.

Come to think of it those bunkers on the second shot for the 5th at Cypress Point do pretty much the same thing, although they don't go all the way across the fairway.

Anthony Gray

Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2009, 06:25:28 PM »


  What say you about hole 2 at pebble beach? Good example?

  Anthony


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2009, 02:44:33 AM »
Sean,

I was waiting for you to compare it to the vaunted Detroit defense standing them up at the blue line.  At least, that would be in terms I understand!

Jeff

If Detroit wants to retain the Cup they had better find a way to stand up the opposition at the blue line.  Thus far for Detroit's standards, their defense has been crap.  Mind you, part of that is down to goalkeeping.  I fear it is time to go on the hunt - again.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Damon Groves

Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2009, 07:23:10 PM »
I don't see a problem with a cross bunker depending on the situation and given the concerns with distance a well placed cross bunker can make a par 5 truly play as a three shot hole or at least make sure the second shot is a tough one for the long hitter. For the short hitter the cross bunker in this situation is not as crucial as the hole would play as a three shotter anyway but does add some visual interest and a challenge in having to cross it.

As for diagonal bunkers, they are good too and add a little bit of a Cape Hole element to a hole.

For either situation it clearly depends on the situation and both are a good part of any design if placed with the strategic elements in mind.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2009, 10:11:49 PM »
Sean,

Yeah if the Dallas Stars beat you three out of four, you know something is wrong there!

I am not trying to bust any chops here, but I still wonder if anyone thinks that saying "in the right place" or "there is a time and place for everything" passes as deep gca thought?  Or by pointing to a few examples in the world's 350,000 golf holes and saying "aha!" they are a great idea, see?

I also wonder why people here are so against conceptual thinking.  For instance, I still doodle golf holes endlessly, looking for the right place to put things.  I don't see how a) the old guys didn't do that, b) you expect a gca to miraculously only start thinking about good design ideas when he/she first sees a piece of land, and c) well I just don't know C. 

Isn't that in essence what Doak doing by going around the world and assessing existing holes that work - the cross bunker on a right angle dog leg, for instance, which is a great observation - and thinking about how that might come into play in some future design?  Again, I understand the possibility exists that someone might force a certain design in where it doesn't fit - I have tried but caught myself (at least I think so) on most occaisions when that didn't prove to work.  But going in with a complete blank slate as if everything you know and every other gca has ever known should be disregarded?

On any normal topography, and in most wind conditions, the cross bunker creates about the same limitations - where ever placed, they challenge about 10 yards of a shot - say from 340 to 350 yards which on any given day might total 1% of the players playing that day and cause problems for the other 99%.  An angled bunker, placed well can reverse that percentage.

If you were in charge, would you prefer the 99% solution or the 1% solution?  Yeah I prefer the 99 per cent about 99% of the time.  (as a player and a gca)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2009, 04:30:46 AM »
Sean,

I am not trying to bust any chops here, but I still wonder if anyone thinks that saying "in the right place" or "there is a time and place for everything" passes as deep gca thought?  Or by pointing to a few examples in the world's 350,000 golf holes and saying "aha!" they are a great idea, see?

I also wonder why people here are so against conceptual thinking.  For instance, I still doodle golf holes endlessly, looking for the right place to put things.  I don't see how a) the old guys didn't do that, b) you expect a gca to miraculously only start thinking about good design ideas when he/she first sees a piece of land, and c) well I just don't know C. 

Isn't that in essence what Doak doing by going around the world and assessing existing holes that work - the cross bunker on a right angle dog leg, for instance, which is a great observation - and thinking about how that might come into play in some future design?  Again, I understand the possibility exists that someone might force a certain design in where it doesn't fit - I have tried but caught myself (at least I think so) on most occaisions when that didn't prove to work.  But going in with a complete blank slate as if everything you know and every other gca has ever known should be disregarded?

On any normal topography, and in most wind conditions, the cross bunker creates about the same limitations - where ever placed, they challenge about 10 yards of a shot - say from 340 to 350 yards which on any given day might total 1% of the players playing that day and cause problems for the other 99%.  An angled bunker, placed well can reverse that percentage.

If you were in charge, would you prefer the 99% solution or the 1% solution?  Yeah I prefer the 99 per cent about 99% of the time.  (as a player and a gca)

Jeff

Well, isn't there a time and a place for everything?  Not considering all the options on the table is what imo has led to courses stocked with 75-100 bunkers.  No matter how clever you are, with that many bunkers there has to be two things going on.  First, patterns will be repeated and almost assuredly unnecessarily.  IMO Dr Mac is guilty as charged in this category and perhaps this sort ott bunkering gives the greenlight to every other archie out there.  We often blame the new guys for this trend, but it was started back in the old days, mind you, at least Dr Mac was a bit more clever about it then many newer archies.  Second,  with that many bunkers and if at all possible (read reasonable) I would think it imperative to build different types with different strategic purposes.  But then, personally, I would go over hell and high water NOT to use sand anywhere near 75-100 times in a round.  Though I accept that sometimes it is advantageous to do so and that sometimes it is well done. 

I am not against conceptual thinking at all.  Of course archies grab ideas, tuck them away and doodle with them to fit current or future situations.  I am not sure why you think anybody is against this.  If you believe like I do that nothing new (or damn close to it) under the sun is being created then remoulding old ideas is essential.  And to be fair, there is no need to try and re-invent the wheel every time out. By all means, stand on shoulders, but stand on all the shoulders available.

If I were in charge I would prefer the 99% and the 1% solution.  Because one solution is used more often and can effect more people more of the time doesn't make it a better hazard.  It is merely a hazard with a different goal.   BTW, I don't think your breakdown of percentages is anywhere near correct.  A well placed cross bunker can be much more effective than you suggest once you accept what the purpose of the that bunker is.  From my experience, the best ones I have seen (no matter if a par 4 or 5 and  I have seen a few gooduns off the tee as well) are those which challenge the second after a not so well hit or placed drive.  They are in essence recovery problems which can be close to the green or guard the optimum recovery spot well short of the green.  The key is to create a reward beyond the bunker which players want to acheive.  I can't see what is conceptually faulty with this design concept.  Though I have seen a few gooduns off the tee as well. 

I know Harlech doesn't get a lot of love on this site, but I think it is worth seeing if only for the great variety of bunkering styles and placement.  I dearly want to see Myopia and Garden City because I sense they too have a superb mix.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2009, 07:12:47 AM »
Sean,

Of course there is a time and a place for everything!  My only reason for pointing that out was that its so standard a thought that Ran could probably ban the phrase, and we could all agree that it is inherent in every post here....along with "as long as it fits the land" and save some bandwidth!

I do agree that many, many gca's over rely on bunkers.  75 is too many for the vast majority of cousres. (of course, there is a time and place for courses with 75 bunkers, providing they fit the land)  And, in most cases, grass hollows, chocolate drop mounds, etc. would provide the same strategy and more variety, and perhaps better aesthetics (if placed where shadow patterns might develop)

In my conceptual thinking, (which you can get some idea of in the second (? I think) Paul Daley book) I see (have doodled) about 2 dozen basic strategic tee shot scenarios - the cross hazard is one of them,  the pinched fw is one, etc, the angled carry hazard is one, etc.  Even casual readers here will note my defense of the general reduction of carry bunkers off the tee as compared to the golden age, but they still have there place.

In each new design, I figure if there are more than two dozen good tee shot scenarios, rather than mindlessly repeating flanking bunkers at the landing area, I should probably have 14 different ones.  In this way, I actually believe that "pre-thinking" leads to more variety than "going by feel" because golf architects, as humans (yes, its true!) tend to form habits and , IMHO, need a mechanism to break those habits!  Again, my point here is that many on this site believe romantically that the gca goes out on site and is totally inspired with new ideas by seeing the land.  In reality, we are inspired to implement the right ideas when we see the land.

I also have general ideas about the basic usefulness of each, including wind conditions and hole lengths where they work.  So, the cross hazard is in there, but in thinking about it, its just less good and less flexible than some other choices.  As Tom D notes, we usually use up whatever allotment of cross hazards we feel comfortable with because we can't pipe creeks, making cross bunkers even less popular.

If a cross hazard is going to block a fw, and limit distance, then I think it works better placed perhaps 300 or so from the tee and normally into the wind.  It makes judging how close you can get to the creek difficult and adds strategy of taking enough club to get close.  It follows that this would also work best on a par 5 or at least mid length par 4 - on a short 4 there would be no need to challenge the creek.

Similarly, for almost any cross (or angled) carry hazard, I prefer to place them on normally downwind holes because they are more tempting. In a headwind situation, most players would just play well safe, reducing/negating the number of times it would actually play as designed.

As noted, the cross hazard IMHO can work best on the second shots on par 5s, and after reading Tom D's post, on those with sharp doglegs so that all players have a chance to clear it by choosing a good angle off the tee.  By that theory, a cross hazard might make more sense off the tee, where you could make it play equally from multiple tees, but somehow, that just seems like a forced carry and not a strategic element, and we are often forced into those by wetlands or ponds we need to keep.

So, I agree there is a place for everything - the above is just a bit of fleshing out of what would constitute the correct places.    Others will surely post (or maybe not ;)) examples of other places cross hazards might work.  And they might - no argument there.  As always, just MHO.  And, as always, I reserve the right to change my mind over time.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2009, 07:40:12 AM »
Sean,

Of course there is a time and a place for everything!  My only reason for pointing that out was that its so standard a thought that Ran could probably ban the phrase, and we could all agree that it is inherent in every post here....along with "as long as it fits the land" and save some bandwidth!

I do agree that many, many gca's over rely on bunkers.  75 is too many for the vast majority of cousres. (of course, there is a time and place for courses with 75 bunkers, providing they fit the land)  And, in most cases, grass hollows, chocolate drop mounds, etc. would provide the same strategy and more variety, and perhaps better aesthetics (if placed where shadow patterns might develop)

In my conceptual thinking, (which you can get some idea of in the second (? I think) Paul Daley book) I see (have doodled) about 2 dozen basic strategic tee shot scenarios - the cross hazard is one of them,  the pinched fw is one, etc, the angled carry hazard is one, etc.  Even casual readers here will note my defense of the general reduction of carry bunkers off the tee as compared to the golden age, but they still have there place.

In each new design, I figure if there are more than two dozen good tee shot scenarios, rather than mindlessly repeating flanking bunkers at the landing area, I should probably have 14 different ones.  In this way, I actually believe that "pre-thinking" leads to more variety than "going by feel" because golf architects, as humans (yes, its true!) tend to form habits and , IMHO, need a mechanism to break those habits!  Again, my point here is that many on this site believe romantically that the gca goes out on site and is totally inspired with new ideas by seeing the land.  In reality, we are inspired to implement the right ideas when we see the land.

I also have general ideas about the basic usefulness of each, including wind conditions and hole lengths where they work.  So, the cross hazard is in there, but in thinking about it, its just less good and less flexible than some other choices.  As Tom D notes, we usually use up whatever allotment of cross hazards we feel comfortable with because we can't pipe creeks, making cross bunkers even less popular.

If a cross hazard is going to block a fw, and limit distance, then I think it works better placed perhaps 300 or so from the tee and normally into the wind.  It makes judging how close you can get to the creek difficult and adds strategy of taking enough club to get close.  It follows that this would also work best on a par 5 or at least mid length par 4 - on a short 4 there would be no need to challenge the creek.

Similarly, for almost any cross (or angled) carry hazard, I prefer to place them on normally downwind holes because they are more tempting. In a headwind situation, most players would just play well safe, reducing/negating the number of times it would actually play as designed.

As noted, the cross hazard IMHO can work best on the second shots on par 5s, and after reading Tom D's post, on those with sharp doglegs so that all players have a chance to clear it by choosing a good angle off the tee.  By that theory, a cross hazard might make more sense off the tee, where you could make it play equally from multiple tees, but somehow, that just seems like a forced carry and not a strategic element, and we are often forced into those by wetlands or ponds we need to keep.

So, I agree there is a place for everything - the above is just a bit of fleshing out of what would constitute the correct places.    Others will surely post (or maybe not ;)) examples of other places cross hazards might work.  And they might - no argument there.  As always, just MHO.  And, as always, I reserve the right to change my mind over time.



Jeff

I still can't help feeling you are ranking hazard effectiveness and equating that to hazard quality.  If this is the case, I am in strong disagreement - hence the idea that there is a time and a place everything.  I am probably wrong though.  Perhaps its more a case of I look at cross bunkers with my glass half full and you with the glass half empty sort of deal. 

I did, however, pick up on "...that just seems like a forced carry and not a strategic element...".  This too could be the source of our seeming disagreement.  I look at penal hazards as part and parcel of strategic design if that is what the archie intends.  My entire premise was based on the "...a good cross bunker here and there makes an essential UNCOMPROMISING demand on the player which you can't easily argue is bad for him." If one disagrees with this then it stands that penal hazards will not be favoured by that person. 

Below are further detail of the examples I gave.  You will note that neither are used on par 5s and they aren't really in play off the tee.  It is likely that the effectiveness of these bunkers has been improved due to modern equipment because in the old days a great many golfers would have struggled to go round these and remain in the fairway.  They do however, work very well in recovery situations.  In both cases the shots are uphill and getting over them is a benefit, but often a risky play coming out of rough or into a decent head wind.

#2


#5


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2009, 08:08:09 AM »
Sean,

My comment regarding forced carries was directed at tee shots only.  Perhaps because of the implied "hit it as far as you can" a carryable cross hazard induces no strategy, although a lay up one does, if given the proper distance.

I am not sure about the difference between quality and effectiveness that you speak of unless you refer to my propostion that certain hazard types (i.e. angled carry hazards) can be made to serve nearly everyone, vs. cross hazards which come into play for a lower percentage.

In the case you mention above, I have always favored the ANGC theory.  Why is it a strong idea to punish someone who has hit the rough with a cross bunker 30 yards short of the green?  If that is as far as he can advance, he is already hitting the green in three.  How does possibly turning that into 4 or 5 with a deep bunker accomplish MacKenzies goal of allowing an average player of getting around and not piling up a big score?  Isn't bogey enough?

Granted, the bunker might stop a low running shot from under the trees from reaching the green but would that combo happen enough to warrant placing a bunker to stop it?  As we know, most Ross "Top Shot" bunkers got taken out as useless later on.  Tillie recommended removing duffers headaches, and I have to believe that many were in the cross bunker, affect only the average player type.

Uncompromising Demand means differen things to different levels of player.  Any hazards near a green can produce such a demand.  Hazards this far from the green only do it for players that don't need it and players who don't need it in this situation (ie. make a difficult recovery shot more difficult by taking out the run up option, and adding penalty to penalty)

I think we agree - basically I am arguing against penal hazards of this type.  But, it raises an interesting question which we have noodled on before - is the disappearance of certain types of hazards like cross bunkers - almost inevitable as courses find out just how they work?  As I have said on other threads, is it possible that the gca's and clubs of the 1950's got it right based on their experience and we are "demanding" certain things be brought back out of nostalgia, but with no real data on how they work?

Or, am I just a bit of a stick in the mud?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2009, 08:54:08 AM »
Sean,

My comment regarding forced carries was directed at tee shots only.  Perhaps because of the implied "hit it as far as you can" a carryable cross hazard induces no strategy, although a lay up one does, if given the proper distance.

I am not sure about the difference between quality and effectiveness that you speak of unless you refer to my propostion that certain hazard types (i.e. angled carry hazards) can be made to serve nearly everyone, vs. cross hazards which come into play for a lower percentage.

In the case you mention above, I have always favored the ANGC theory.  Why is it a strong idea to punish someone who has hit the rough with a cross bunker 30 yards short of the green?  If that is as far as he can advance, he is already hitting the green in three.  How does possibly turning that into 4 or 5 with a deep bunker accomplish MacKenzies goal of allowing an average player of getting around and not piling up a big score?  Isn't bogey enough?

Granted, the bunker might stop a low running shot from under the trees from reaching the green but would that combo happen enough to warrant placing a bunker to stop it?  As we know, most Ross "Top Shot" bunkers got taken out as useless later on.  Tillie recommended removing duffers headaches, and I have to believe that many were in the cross bunker, affect only the average player type.

Uncompromising Demand means differen things to different levels of player.  Any hazards near a green can produce such a demand.  Hazards this far from the green only do it for players that don't need it and players who don't need it in this situation (ie. make a difficult recovery shot more difficult by taking out the run up option, and adding penalty to penalty)

I think we agree - basically I am arguing against penal hazards of this type.  But, it raises an interesting question which we have noodled on before - is the disappearance of certain types of hazards like cross bunkers - almost inevitable as courses find out just how they work?  As I have said on other threads, is it possible that the gca's and clubs of the 1950's got it right based on their experience and we are "demanding" certain things be brought back out of nostalgia, but with no real data on how they work?

Or, am I just a bit of a stick in the mud?

Jeff

I am not trying to pin point you, but I think some of your views are a result of architecture being dumbed down to a certain extent - which is really just indicative of our society in general.  Everybody expects/demands(?) an easier route to the goal at all times.  An archie cannot be all things to all golfers all the time.  I am not even sure this is a worthy goal considering it is unachievable.  Is there no place for this attitude in modern golf - "...a good cross bunker here and there makes an essential UNCOMPROMISING demand on the player which you can't easily argue is bad for him."  If forced water carries are any indication, then I do believe so.  Again, what I object to in your descriptions are the implication that one type of hazard is better than another because of its percentage of impact on play or even how it impacts play.  I would merely say the hazards are different because their use has different intents all of which are just as valid or good as each other.  The trick is to figure out the balance depending on which subset of golfers the design of the course is aimed.  Not being a believer in the effectiveness of 5 sets of tees based on length as a means of creating "fair" outcomes I spose my stance on the matter isn't surprising.  I am all for options, but I think some "must do" shots are very important as well.  Given that I believe this and that I am generally against harsh rough or long water carries, where else is the effect of do or don't die to be accomplished - still giving the player every opportunity to peform a fundamental aspect of the game - find the ball and hit?

Ciao   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 08:57:16 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Anthony Gray

Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2009, 09:07:53 AM »
I don't see a problem with a cross bunker depending on the situation and given the concerns with distance a well placed cross bunker can make a par 5 truly play as a three shot hole or at least make sure the second shot is a tough one for the long hitter. For the short hitter the cross bunker in this situation is not as crucial as the hole would play as a three shotter anyway but does add some visual interest and a challenge in having to cross it.

 

  I would say Pebble Beach hole 2 is a great example of this.

  Anthony


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2009, 11:00:52 AM »
Sean,

We might not be all that far apart. I think we come at it from different ends, but both agree that once a course, a cross sand bunker is probably great.  We might disagree on where great is.....

I do agree that a cross sand bunker is better than a cross water hazard (well a big one anyway) because it does allow you to recover.  As mentioned, envro reggies result in enough or too many of those.....I got to thinking about the 17th at Baltusrol - that's more of a Hell's Quarter Acre - not as catchy but probably about the right depth for a cross hazard in that case.

You may be right about society in general.  And dumbing down, but I prefer to call designing for the guy who pays the bills.  I mean, there could be, in fact I know, that most golfers get out to the course to get away from seemingly uncompromising demands at work or home.  Do they want to face those during recreation? 

It would be like going to the Y to play basketball and finding you would be playing the Celtics.  Once that would be a great story.  On a regular basis you would give up knowing you couldn't win.  You might, but my sense is (and surveys confirm) that most golfers play for fun and camraderie.

So, we agree that once in a while that uncompromising demand is good.  To me the trick is to place the cross bunkers to create great stories in the clubhouse later.  Then, they are worth it for that and the variety they lend.

If my views are dumbing down, your views are based on challenging the best players most of whom will never show up.  Even the next level down is a mere 3% or so of the golfers who will play.  Given that there are almost ways to challenge players, if a feature works for all golfers, IMHO, its inherently stronger than one that works for a narrow segment and deserves to get used more.

Another theory, dating to Ross is that par 3's can be tougher.  Most gca's use the forced carries on par 3 holes because the multiple tees you despise can be used to create approximately the same shot for everyone, and they get some help with the ball on a tee.  I suppose you would call that panzy golf design, eh? ;)

Again, I enjoy the back and forth.  Imagine that, a civil disagreement on gca.com! (and between a Wings and Stars fan!) ;D  BTW, we play the Avalanche tonight, who are also struggling. I recall the "Golden Age" when DET, DAL, and COL were the top dogs in the Western Conference of the NHL every year.  But, time marches on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2009, 12:04:21 PM »
If my views are dumbing down, your views are based on challenging the best players most of whom will never show up.  Even the next level down is a mere 3% or so of the golfers who will play.  Given that there are almost ways to challenge players, if a feature works for all golfers, IMHO, its inherently stronger than one that works for a narrow segment and deserves to get used more.

Jeff

I don't care in the least about the very best players.  Which partly explains why I don't buy the five sets of tees based on length theory of architecture.  I would think that the more people an archie tries to satisfy with his designs, the more he must compromise - this is what I meant be dumbing down.  It a necessity that after a small percentage, the more who then take the exam, the worse the average score of the group will be.  So what do we do?  We make the test easier. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CROSS BUNKERS
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2009, 03:19:44 PM »
What do we do? We talk hockey!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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