[Jim Thornton]

In Tom Doak's "The Confidential Guide", he lists the following courses as ones worth "groveling to play".

Cypress Point
Swinley Forest
San Francisco Golf Club
Muirfield
Shadow Creek
Seminole
Fishers Island
Augusta National
Chicago Golf Club
Old Town Club


Tom Doak -

With the passage of time since the publication of your book in 1996 (my Sleeping Bear press edition...I realize there may have been earlier versions published), are there any courses you would add to this list?  Alternatively, are there any courses you would remove from the original list?

Secondly, what were the key criteria for selecting this list...quality of the architecture, exclusivity, or both?  Since the list is titled "Courses Worth Groveling to Play", it strikes me that exclusivity was the most heavily weighted factor, notwithstanding the fact that each of the courses on your list has strong architectural merit.

Is the absence of courses such as Sand Hills, Merion, Pine Valley, or Crystal Downs (just to name four private clubs with strong architectural merit) an indication that you think these four course are relatively easier to gain access to versus the ones you selected for your list?

Others-

Are there any courses you would nominate for a list of "Courses Worth Groveling to Play"?


Jim 

[Scott Warren]

In the list of unspeakable things I would do to get onto Cypress Point or ANGC, "grovelling" isn't even top 50

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I only listed ten courses because I had to stop somewhere.  Certainly, there could be others.  It was just meant to be a list of ten great courses that were exceptionally hard to get to play ... where you pretty much have to know a member, even if you're in the golf business.

You do have to know a member of Pine Valley, but there are nearly 1000 members and if you really love golf and get around at all you've probably met one or two.  Merion is also difficult, but they've always been so nice to me that I couldn't bring myself to put them on the list.  (The same is true for Cypress Point, but they are not so friendly toward everyone!)

Sebonack might fall in there now; it's that hard to get on.

[Jim Thornton]

Tom-

Good call on Sebonack.  I'd add Friar's Head to the list also.


Jim

[TEPaul]

Courses worth "groveling" to play??

Goodness, Gracious, Great Balls of Whatever!!

Any club that in any way promotes that idea or encourages it or certainly is acutely proud of it isn't worth much more than some "Studio 54" mentality, in my opinion. And I think some know what happened to Studio 54 and it's proponents and proprietors!



On the other hand, there surely does seem to be some semi-undefinable elitist factor or characteristic at work in golf that seems to be almost drug-like seductive to some who probably think of themselves as the "Have Nots" in all of this and it seems like it's been that way for a very long time. Some expansive thinker may even conclude that it may be some beneficial essence to do with golf itself in some small albeit important and strange way.

In that vein, I just love to tell the following story and like a lot of my stories I may have told it before on here (I can't remember at this point).

It had to do with one Pat Rooney (a member of the Rooney family from Pittsburgh who own the Steelers who are about to tee it up in a few hours in the Super Bowl). Pat owned and/or ran the Palm Beach dog track and my dad was so in love with greyhound racing and owning he seemed to take us to the Palm Beach Dog Track ever other evening for an elaborate dinner and the dog races.

Pat just loved golf and belonged to a ton of clubs all over the place, particularly in Ireland but for some reason he looked at Seminole as sort of the Holy Grail that he would somehow never be allowed to see or able to see and play.

I don't think Dad ever even realized that about Pat but eventually I did and so I said: "Hey Dad, why don't you take Pat to Seminole, because I guarantee he'll love it", and since there wasn't much Dad wouldn't do for Pat anyway.

And so one day he did and afterwards I was watching Pat and I said: "What is it Pat?", and Pat said: "You mean this is all it is?"

So I had to say: "This is all it is, what exactly were you expecting it to be?" Pat sort of said: "I guess I don't really know, I guess I never exactly thought about it in detail."

God I just love that story, I think it pretty much says it all in this vein of this thread.

[John Sabino]

As a world-class groveler myself I would add Morfontaine and Yeamans Hall to the list.

[C. Squier]

Tom-

Good call on Sebonack.  I'd add Friar's Head to the list also.


Jim

Jim, they were my first 2 thoughts as well. 

As for the rest of the list, I have to ask about Shadow Creek?  I've never been, but isn't that a matter of plunking down $500 after a stay in an MGM property or occupying a seat at the blackjack table long enough to get noticed?  Mind you, my idea of sitting at a blackjack table is a $5 minimum 

Having played Chicago Golf, thinking that it may be the closest course I'd never have the chance to play I can definitely say it was a surreal experience standing on the 1st tee. 

[PThomas]

i've wondered EXACTLY what Tom meant by "groveling"

[Tom_Doak]

When I wrote that list, the only way you could get to play Shadow Creek was as the guest of Steve Wynn or his brother ... and if you weren't a huge customer of theirs, groveling was the other alternative.

Yeamans Hall isn't nearly that tough a ticket.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

Groveling to Steve Wynn or his brother? And for what? Shadow Creek, that actual reality stunt of a Mirage golf course in the hot uninteresting desert out there somewhere in the Midwest or West?

Those two come from Las Vegas, right Tom? Would you say Las Vegas is the closest America ever came to Sodom and Gommorah? I hear those people out there sacrifice their babies to some kind of God of Chance/God of Visual and Psychological Deception. Is that true, TomD? If so I doubt that course will survive 2009 as the FLOOD will inevitably sweep it away before the end of this year.


Yeamans Hall? That's a piece of cake. I've got a guy from my own club who's been trying to get me down there for years but I just haven't made it there yet, and certainly not because I'm not fascinated by Yeamans Hall because I definitely am.

I tell you what---I'll go to Yeamans if I can get a minimum of a hundred GOLFCLUBATLASERs to meet me at the beginning of the driveway into Yeamans. Then I'll just call up my friend from here who's down there on my cell phone from the beginning of the driveway and tell him we're all there and ready to play.

I know that may be a bit too much to ask of a minimum of a hundred GOLFCLUBATLASERs but whatta ya gonna do? If it doesn't work for some odd reason at least we can all go down to one of those "All you can eat" roadhouses and pig out. With that many of us they may even give us a discount on their discount! I'm pretty sure we can get free refills on the sodas until the cows come home.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sebonack might fall in there now; it's that hard to get on.

Tom,

Sebonack is a fairly regular auction item around New York now. Here is an on-line auction where it did not even trade in September for $3000 for a threesome.

http://tinyurl.com/c6l2gb

[corey miller]

Friar's Head is not even close but along with Sand Hills it does seem to be in the top ten reflexive answers to any question on GCA.

[Matt_Ward]

Too often people think of regular courses as the most difficult to access. I can certainly say that the layout Walter Annenberg had at Sunnylands in the SoCal desert had to be worth a mention. There's a few of these types of limited access courses in the States.

In years past I understand that the former Hominy Hill (Colts Neck, NJ) -- when it was private under the ownership of Henry Mercer-- was also a very demanding course to play. Mercer used to entertain Greek and Japanese shipping people and his former club Rumson objected to this. He said fine -- I'll just create my own course.

[Mike Sweeney]

Friar's Head is not even close but along with Sand Hills it does seem to be in the top ten reflexive answers to any question on GCA.

Google is a GCAers friend:

http://www.pinebarrens.org/gala.asp

[C. Squier]

Friar's Head is not even close but along with Sand Hills it does seem to be in the top ten reflexive answers to any question on GCA.

Google is a GCAers friend:

http://www.pinebarrens.org/gala.asp

Wow, you can say that again.  I can think of worse ways to spend $1100 per guy. 

[cary lichtenstein]

Only Augusta

[Jim Nugent]

As a world-class groveler myself I would add Morfontaine and Yeamans Hall to the list.

Joseph, what about Hirono?

[Joe Bausch]

Here's a site auctioning off soon rounds at many courses in the Carolinas:

http://rounds4research.com/courses.shtml

[Tom_Doak]

Hirono and Tokyo Golf Club would both be worth it, but it would be useless unless you can grovel in Japanese.

[Mark Pearce]

Interesting to see Swinley and Muirfield on the list, which dates from when, 1996?  Anyone with a handicap can now book a slot at Muirfield on a Tuesday or a Thursday and I think anyone who really wants to can get access to Swinley.  Changing times?

[Niall C]

Can't really comment on the courses stateside but I would suggest that Muirfield could be taken off the list as it isn't quite as hard to get on as it was back in the days of the previous Club Secretary (can't remember his name but he reputedly knocked back Payne Stewart when he was US Open champion because he had shown up on a day when it was members only).

Certainly you can't just pitch up and ask for a game but with a bit of forward planning including a polite letter to the Secretary I believe it is fairly straightforward to get a game, albeit available visitor tee times are in demand hence the need to book in advance. I played there a couple of years ago and all the staff and members were friendly which isn't always what you hear about the place.

If I was to add a course over here it would be Loch Lomond. A cracking course but impossible to get on unless you know a member.

Niall

[Sean_A]

With the seemingly endless supply of very good courses which are accessible, is any course worth groveling to play?  If you can't get on with a well intentioned letter, fair enough, just move on to the next place.  It must take someone absolutely obsessed with belt notching to grovel.  Its only a game folks.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

If I was to add a course over here it would be Loch Lomond. A cracking course but impossible to get on unless you know a member.

Niall

Niall,

Here are the results for an online auction to Loch Lomond:

The top lot this year, raising £610, was the chance for three golfers play a round at the exclusive Loch Lomond course.

http://living.scotsman.com/sightsavers/Lastminute-bids-push-charity-.3628320.jp

FYI, Muirfield takes credit cards over the internet now:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/index.cfm?action=visitorTeeTimes

[Tom Birkert]

If I was to add a course over here it would be Loch Lomond. A cracking course but impossible to get on unless you know a member.

Niall

Niall,

Here are the results for an online auction to Loch Lomond:

The top lot this year, raising £610, was the chance for three golfers play a round at the exclusive Loch Lomond course.

http://living.scotsman.com/sightsavers/Lastminute-bids-push-charity-.3628320.jp

FYI, Muirfield takes credit cards over the internet now:

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/index.cfm?action=visitorTeeTimes

The guest green fee at Loch Lomond is £150 so that's a pretty good deal all things considered!

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:

I didn't mean to suggest that any of these clubs were unfriendly ... just that they have their procedures to follow, and that groveling as part of that process doesn't hurt.

Back in the day Muirfield did something like 25-30 guest rounds per day for two days a week, but you had to write a letter about a year in advance to get one of those slots, and you could get denied just as easily as if applying to a prestigious school.  The first time I was there, Capt. Hanmer took a liking to me, and when I was in his office he showed me all the books and gifts people had recently sent him trying to curry favor ... and welcomed me to take any of it I wanted since he was about to throw it all out!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()