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Pete_Pittock

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Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« on: January 30, 2009, 02:09:38 PM »

More gleanings from the clippings of old Oregon newspapers. These were three municipal courses in Portland, coincidentally all by Egan. West Hills was a 9 hole course near the site of the present Oregon Zoo along US 26.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 02:54:48 PM by Pete_Pittock »
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: Depressing Depression Rounds Played
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 02:42:48 PM »
Great find.
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Depressing Depression Rounds Played
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 02:43:26 PM »
There was a spike in play in 1930, when people had more time on their hands and could still afford to play ...

Were they REALLY playing 120,000 rounds on those courses in the late 1920's?  There's the best sales pitch I've ever seen for doing something about speed of play.
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Peter Wagner

Re: Depressing Depression Rounds Played
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 02:46:36 PM »
Pete,

This chart is really interesting.  Look how the peak of total rounds played was in 1929 and even 14 years later the number of rounds was still down by about 65% from the high.  It took WWII to before an upswing in golf business.

I wonder how this might apply to today's economy?  Time will tell I guess.
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Depressing Depression Patronage
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 02:52:32 PM »
Tom,
I modified the title from rounds played to patronage, which is most likely the correct word.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Depressing Depression Rounds Played
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 02:55:48 PM »
Pete,

You wouldn't happen to be able to find the current stats for Eastmoreland and Rose City would you?

What is/was West Hills?

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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 02:59:17 PM »
I think the peak in 1926 is interesting. I have heard the "Great Depression" described as actually being two recessions back to back. Not sure if this chart helps show that
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim Nugent

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 03:03:08 PM »
Real interesting data.  Do you have pricing info, too?  I'm guessing that greens fees fell during the 1930's. 
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Rounds Played
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 03:05:50 PM »
Great find!

Cobb's Creek had over 80,000 rounds played by 1921, which rose to 120,000 by 1929 (although at that time 11 holes of the overflow "Karakung" course had opened the prior year).  

People would line up overnite, much like Bethpage Black, and it was not uncommon for there to be an additional 1-2 hour wait on the 4th tee, a par three which required a full carry of about 170 yards.

The following two 1922 snippets unearthed last year by Joe Bausch are fairly amazing, both in terms of detailing the problem as well as the suggested fixes;





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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 03:11:13 PM »
This is the scene of the crime, where the golfing carnage mentioned above was committed...the daunting (at least with hickory) full-carry 4th at Cobb's Creek.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 03:14:57 PM by MikeCirba »
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 03:11:41 PM »
Garland,
West Hills was a 9 hole H Chandler Egan course. Its holes went from the Children's museum (ex-OMSI) up through the Forestry center and past the Vietnam memorial. I don't remember it going into the zoo proper. It was downsized to Hoyt Park Pitch and Putt.
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Nick Schaan

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 03:23:12 PM »
These maybe were 9 Hole rounds? It was common in the day to count by such.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 03:25:32 PM »
Mike C:

That is a great-looking picture of Cobb's Creek.  However, it looks like you could have played the hole with two 9-iron shots, so what's the fuss?
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 03:28:21 PM »
Much like the incredible work of H. Chandler Egan to promote public golf in the Pacific Northwest, Philadelphia had it's own design "angels" like Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith, and Robert Lesley.

It's amazing to consider that the GAP effort to build Cobb's Creek involving these men began in 1913 (Cobbs opened in May 1916) and these dedicated men were still heavily involved almost a decade later as these two 1922 articles illustrate;






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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 03:31:05 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 30, 2009, 03:25:32 PM
Mike C:

That is a great-looking picture of Cobb's Creek.  However, it looks like you could have played the hole with two 9-iron shots, so what's the fuss?

Tom,

Much like the 16th at Cypress Point, I'm sure there was much shaming and questioning of testosterone levels of those who attempted the strategic "lay-up".  ;)
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 03:40:12 PM »
Interesting that the rounds went up in 1930.  I'm guessing that since the market crash happened in Oct. '29, maybe a few folks were unawares of the deepening and length of the trouble to come, so they went out to play golf in their spare time.  Was there any private clubs in Portland at the time.  It would be interesting to see if the membership fell of in that year or two following the crash, and those folks showed up at the public course for a year or so, until they fell deeper in with the rest of the downtrodden, and that is when the rounds fell off for a long time.

So, will public courses rounds increase next year, near the big financial centers where mid level managers have been members at mid level clubs, and give that up but not the game, and go play at some less expensive muni's for a while, and then the whole things slides downwards for 10 years?  Who the hell knows. 

But, it is a wonder how those courses with less equipment and products to apply to their turf, stood up to that many rounds per year of stress.

Lastly, is the guy on horseback under the presumed shot LOP some version of a forecaddie?  ::)
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses New
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 04:49:36 PM »
RJ,
  Here is a list of Portland area golf courses through 1931.  I guess the muni stats should not be viewed in a vacuum. It should be noted that the leadership and membership of all the private clubs were instrumental and involved in the push for municipal courses. I don't know if all the golf courses listed as private were imediately private or when they graduated.
Waverley        1896  18 Pr
Tualatin          1912  18 Pr
Portland         1914  18 Pr
Eastmoreland 1918  18 Mu
Rose City        1923  18 Mu
West Hills       1924    9 Mu (NLE)
Alderwood      1925  18 Pr  near 65th and Marine Dr (NLE)
Multnomah      1926  18 Pr  near SW 80th from Scholls Ferry to Canyon Rd (NLE)
Columbia         1926  18 Pr  Now Columbia Edgewater
Oswego          1926  18 Pr  Now Oswego Lake
Glendoveer     26/28 36 Pu
Wildwood        1927   9 Pu  Towards St Helens
Riverside         1927  18 Pr
Ruby's             1928  18 Pu  no idea where (NLE)
Inverness        27/30 36 Pu Near 122nd/Sandy (NLE)
City View         1929  18 Pu  became Top O'Scott on Mt Scott in SE Portland
Monaugh Lea  1929   9  Pu No idea (NLE)
Peninsula        1929  18 Pu N Denver near Portland Meadows (NLE)
Mt Hood          1929    9 Pu  Wemme, near Mt Hood
Broadmoor      1931  18  Pu
Meadowbrook 1931  18  Pu  Renamed Colwood (Macan)

Later courses included Laurelhurst at 47th & NE Glisan,
 Lloyds in the gulch south of Lloyd Center and
Mayfair at 82nd and Division.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 02:04:21 PM by Pete_Pittock »
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Tom Dunne

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 05:33:08 PM »
Mike Cirba,

That really is a great old shot of Cobb's Creek. I'm always heartened, as well, to see that centaurs roamed freely on the links back in the day. In this photo he appears to be jauntily fording the creek.

One can only hope that as we restore our country's courses to a more natural state, the centaurs will return.
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 07:50:32 PM »
Tom Dunne,

That's the funniest thing I've ever read here...I'm crying I'm laughing so hard!  ;D
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 07:54:37 PM »
RJ

They were actually Park Rangers on horseback....or centaurs.

They were hired to patrol the course and keep order.   

As Tom Dunne said, I think it would be very appropo to someday see them return.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 09:39:59 PM by MikeCirba »
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 11:00:33 PM »
Since the public course access more than doubled just before the number of rounds began to fall, how valid can the data be?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 11:06:54 PM »
Mike, thanks for the edu.  ;D  I had never heard that before.
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Peter Wagner

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2009, 11:21:23 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for posting this!  Its given me much to consider as I keep looking at distressed golf courses to acquire.  Some of my previous thinking involved turning a money loser into a breakeven club and holding for 5 years waiting for the turn back northward and then shifting into second gear.  But here's a chart that shows what a different reality COULD be.  I have to incorporate this chart into the plan and build something that can withstand many years of zero growth.

How many clubs could withstand the above chart? 
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Pat Burke

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Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2009, 11:30:29 PM »
Quote from: Tom Dunne on January 30, 2009, 05:33:08 PM
Mike Cirba,

That really is a great old shot of Cobb's Creek. I'm always heartened, as well, to see that centaurs roamed freely on the links back in the day. In this photo he appears to be jauntily fording the creek.

One can only hope that as we restore our country's courses to a more natural state, the centaurs will return.
:D

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Mike_Cirba

Re: Depressing Depression Stat- Patronage on courses
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2009, 11:32:48 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on January 30, 2009, 11:06:54 PM
Mike, thanks for the edu.  ;D  I had never heard that before.

RJ,

Actually, I've done some digging and found that since it was a public park, it was used for multiple, sometimes oddly conflicting purposes.

Since the 4th tee usually held a captive audience of upwards of 100 waiting golfers in a natural amphitheatre setting, what you're witnessing in this picture is an early theatrical adaptation of "Equus", with an earlier generation version of Daniel Radcliffe "mounting" the object of his worshipful affection before the somewhat disbelieving plus-four-clad observers.  ;)

As Tom Doak mentioned...the hole wasn't all that tough, but the obviously curious distraction did lead to some very, very slow play.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:35:55 PM by MikeCirba »
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