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Jamie_Duffner

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2002, 03:36:00 PM »
Or, a really short par 4!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2002, 04:57:16 PM »
Is it possible that Burbeck was aware of Tillinghast's Reef concept and adopted it? Or that Tillinghast adapted one of Burbecks holes into a Reef?

If Burbeck and Tillinghast were going for a Pine Valley type of test for the Black wouldn't interesting greens be part of the equation? Isn't it more likely that the greens were a result of Tillinghast being 'laid off' prior to completion?

I think there is enough information to give them duel credit. It seems to me that is what Tillinghast wrote in his articles. Burbeck probably deserves more credit then he has been given (which is none), but not at the expense of Tillinghast. What's wrong with saying the courses are the work of the team of Tillinghast & Burbeck?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2002, 05:20:38 PM »
Tom:

I don't see anything wrong with crediting Bethpage Black to Tillinghast & Burbeck. Based on the evidence presented so far -- and common sense -- that would seem the best solution to the problem.

My hunch, however, is that such a designation will not satisfy Burbeck the younger, nor does it make for a slam-bang ending to the historical detective story. It's more like a punt, and I don't think that's what Golf Digest has in mind.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

BCrosby

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Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2002, 05:21:55 PM »
I don't disagree with giving Burbeck some credit, but Whitten goes way, way past the mark if he wants to designate Burbeck as the designer and Tillie as the consultant.  That's just wrong.  

Or to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, Whitten's conclusion was the result of a thought process that went - "ready, shoot, aim."

It is clear from the Farmington quote that design features unique to Tillie were a prominent part of the Bethpage courses from the beginning.

The "Reef" reference is the smoking gun.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2002, 05:48:53 PM »
Tom MacW:

Of course it's possible that Burbeck could've been aware of Tillinghast's "reef hole", but that's a possibility that Tillinghast afficionados don't really want to consider--can't you tell?

The second part of what you said seems more likely though given what's currently known. If, in fact, the course was routed by Burbeck because it was routed months before Tillinghast got there, then the second thing you said is far more plausible, in my opinion--that Tillinghast adopted the "Reef" concept to one of the holes routed by Burbeck.

Tillinghast/Burbeck might not be a bad idea if that routing question is answered and the course was routed before Tillinghast got there. Of course Burbeck Jr. would settle for that and even if he doesn't what does that really matter, since the facts became known?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2002, 11:56:26 PM »
Dear Ron Whitten,

What is your evidence that Bethpage Black was "laid out" (and what do you mean by that?) months before Tillinghast was hired?

As you can see, many of us here (all of us here?) are unpersuaded by the evidence you've supplied to date.

Many of us here (all of us here?) are willing to give Mr. Burbeck Sr. all of the credit he deserves -- but we need you to present a more compelling case that Mr. Burbeck alone deserves credit as the Black's architect.

Please respond. Thank you.

Dan Kelly
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2002, 05:52:23 AM »
Good for you Dan Kelly!

The answer to the question of what exactly "laid out" meant and if it meant "routing", and when that happened with The Black is the fundamental question to be answered here! And you're right to ask Ron Whitten to provide what he was using when he cited that remark and to explain where it came from! It's completely necessary to know since he obviously based some very fundamental and important ASSUMPTIONS and possibly a conclusion on that bit of information!

I realize you're very interested in the accuracy of reporting--and you should be. We all should be. The real reason for it in golf architecture is far too often people base their assumptions from which they draw conclusions on the wrong things--or at least on indirect things which may be misleading.

In many cases it just isn't good enough to base architectural conclusions on what someone once wrote about something because it could very well have been wrong or misleading. And unless it's accuracy is checked it tends to be taken for the rest of time as fact.

Really good and accurate architectural fact finding has to go back as its source to the course itself and hopefully something can be found that is irrefutable that can clear up the accuracy of anything that may ever have been written about it!

It may not be possible to find those things, of course, but we don't know that now. They may be out there somewhere to piece things back together.

It's not much different than the creation period of Pine Valley and the collaboration of architects there and what exactly they actually did and didn't do. It was written about, of course, but in some cases possibly not that accurately for whatever reason.

But it appears that the evidence of exactly what went on there back then is still in the archives but it has to be analyzed very carefully, something that apparently was never really done that accurately.

Why that happened is interesting and one of the reasons I find is that the people who did it later simply relied too heavily on what was written about it instead of just looking at what is actually still there from when the course was being done. That material is far more valid to me than something that somebody once wrote about it.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jamie_Duffner

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2002, 07:23:29 AM »
TEPaul,

Some very good points.  I've been thinking about the terms "routing" and "laid out" and find even those terms ambiguous.  Here's another what if;  what if Burbeck knew the proerty on which Black would be "routed" and of course he would have.  Before Tillie get's there, he begins clearing the land, providing corridors for golf holes, but absolutley no features are "laid out."  Meaning, all you have is a flow of corridors that will eventually will become a golf course.  Tillie shows up, walks the property (with or without Burbeck), draws up the detailed features of how a golf hole will fit onto the "routing."  Tillie provides tee positions, hazzards, green complexes, and entrusts Burbeck to lay those golf holes on the existing "routing."  Confusing enough, but plausible.  Also, I'm not sure what clearing would have been necessary in 1933.  An aerial of the land pre-golf course would be interesting.

Still, I'm not covinced about Whitten's timeline and when Tillie comes on the scene; before or after certain aspects of the Black were begun or even completed.  I am confident that at least two Tillie and Bethpage Black afficionados, both of whom have posted on this thread and written books on the subject, conducted much more thorough research than Whitten.

Clearly the jury is still out. But, it seems Burbeck deserves more credit on one hand, while on the other, Whitten needs to retract the article and provide a better researched, cogent argument for removing Tillie's name as designer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2002, 09:19:59 AM »
JamieD:

What you said there in your first paragraph is exactly a scenario that a few of us have been proposing (on this thread) may have been the way The Black came to be. You should go back and read some of those posts.

You say it's confusing enough but plausible. You bet it is! It's more than plausible, it's the way golf courses are basically imagined, visualized, created and constructed--certainly the ones of The Black's era. So it's much more than plausible, it's highly probable, that is, if Burbeck actually did "route" the golf course before Tillinghast got there.

So what is a "routing" and what might have Burbeck done before Tillinghast got there? He may have "laid out" the basic progression of the course, the way the holes progressed and flowed, what those holes were (par 3s, par 4s and par 5s) and in their exact order then and today. Essentially that's a basic "routing".

But why would anyone do it in any particular way or fashion? Because they can imagine (even preliminarily) what the course will look like, what the order of the holes need to be and how they fit together, what the individual hole concepts basically can become, what the variety of the course is and where, what the balance may be and how necessary it is to the overall course always trying to use the best of anything on the site.

A preliminary routing such as it may have been if Burbeck did it back then, may have been what's sometimes called a "stick routing" only because dots or Xs were sometimes used for tee and hole sites and they were connected by a center drawn line that deliniated the way the holes were envisioned to go or flow.

More goes into envisioning a good routing than most seem to understand. It truly is like doing a large jigsaw puzzle on the ground because the "pieces" (the holes) have to fit together somehow. This was far more important in that era than today because golfers had to walk!

Finding golf holes really isn't all that terribly difficult sometimes on good land and good sites. But putting the holes (the pieces) together into an interesting "whole" (the routing) providing the necessary variety and balance to the progression of the holes is hard!

And even if you can find the holes and the variety and balance then doing the next part, what is sometimes called "connecting the dots" can sometimes become more than maddening. Basically what "connecting the dots" is is getting the greens and the next tee as close together as possible. And that part in that era was often very difficult and if done well is admirable and indicative of talent, in my opinion!

This all wasn't very easy back then because those men did not have as much ablilty to change the landscape as they do today and basically if you can't fit things together today you can simply make something where you want it and need it.

I can't really imagine what kind of latitude either Burbeck or Tillinghast might have had to change things to fit the pieces together but the fact that Bethpage apparently had 600 WPA workers working on it is not insubstantial at all---that's a lot of man-power for that era to make changes.

But let's just say that Burbeck actually did do the routing of both individual holes, their exact placement etc which created the routing of what The Black is. It's more than plausible, it's probable that Tillinghast may have come in at that point and begun to really develop the "features" of those holes (bunkering, fairway deliniations, angles of them, green orientations and all that goes on at the green-end etc, etc, to perfect the "concepts" and overall "options" that create the "strategies" of those holes!

This is more than plausible to me and would also explain why some of those who really do know The Black and Tillinghast might think The Black is Tillinghast's complete design and routing simply because the "features" that were added to Burbeck's routing really do look like Tillinghast's because they probably are! In this way the courses of some architects can be identifiable as theirs or their particular style.

But other than definitely Donald Ross and possibly William Flynn I'm not sure that any of those people can actually identify a particular "routing" style from particular architects much less Tillinghast of all architects. I don't know all that much about Tillinghast but some of his courses that I have seen and played are not even remotely similar in a routing style!

But if Tillinghast did not actually route The Black and only came in during the next phase of developing the hole concepts with particularly the architectural features (definitely not an unimportant undertaking) I, for one, would have to assume that Tillinghast must have been somewhat in agreement with Burbeck's routing or he might have attempted to change it if he was serious about the project and I presume he was.

But conversely, when anyone understands how difficult it can be to create a good routing in the first place they quickly become aware of how difficult it can be to change it! It's basically the same process in reverse with the pieces already fitting together that have to now be changed and in a "dot connected" routing as The Black may be that could be really hard.

The analogy to this reverse process can probably be looked at a little like trying to fit fence rails into fence posts that are already in the ground and set. Sometimes you have to take a whole bunch of rails (the holes) out to try to fit them into the set posts (the routing) and if you can't do that for some reason you have to start to uproot the posts themselves and reset them somewhere else (start to change the whole routing). If this gets bad enough or hard enough you may have to ditch the entire routing and go back to square one.

That, in my opinion, is how difficult it could be to redo some of those old close-coupled classic course routings. And if Burbeck did do it, Tillinghast probably agreed that it was good and he could work well with it!

I don't even know enough about The Black to know if it is a great routing but if it's such a highly acclaimed golf course it must be. So if Burbeck did it and Tillinghast worked with it without massively changing it, Burbeck should get some real credit because creating the routing on a great classic course takes some talent.

But for all I know this vague fact that Whitten is using that the course was "laid out" (routed) by Burbeck may not be true at all. Maybe Tillinghast did the routing, developed all the hole features and concepts on his own and then Burbeck constructed them when Tillinghast was gone.

But hopefully we will see about that routing and who did it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jamie_Duffner

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2002, 09:32:00 AM »
TEPaul,

Very well put, all of it!!

Lots of questions for sure.  If indeed it happened the way you propose, then I think we can all agree a joint Tillie/Burbeck acreditation is fair.  Still, I'm not sure what exactly did happen.  Did Burbeck rout the course?  Did Tillie work with that routing?  Did Tillie change it substantially? I'd like to know.  It does appear that the two men got a long very well and at least Tillie has deep admiration for Burback, I bet it was reciprocated.

I wonder if both men would be saddened by this debate as I think both would gladly share credit.  I hope Burbeck Jr stops to consider that point, although I think he'd be satisfied with joint credit, which is much more than his dad has at the moment.

Finally, and it's the last time I'm going to say this, at the very least, Whitten did a very loose article on this topic and caused more controversy than solving any debate.  The research is very suspect and the article is a bit too one-sided and subjective.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2002, 01:45:54 PM »
Jamie:

I'd like to know exactly what happened, when and how too and that would answer all these questions, wouldn't it.

I don't even know that Ron Whitten's article really was irresponsible for making the conclusion he did. Maybe Ron Whitten has something conclusive and had no idea that anyone would really get into dissecting exactly what the differences and distinctions are between routing a course and some of the other things constructors do.

Ron Whitten is aware of Golfclubatlas but maybe even he didn't think we would get into something as particular as the things we have here.

But they're important if you're really fascinated by all things architecture, as we obviously are.

Ron Whitten's would be irresponsible as far as I'm concerned if he was basing a conclusion on who the designer of The Black was if all he's doing is depending on the word of Burbeck's son! Ron Whitten should know better than that!

But for all we know Ron Whitten may have seen something that shows that Burbeck Sr. routed and designed the routing phase of The Black. Maybe that something is what that 1959 State Park Report he cited is based on. Maybe Ron Whitten thought that would be all that was necessary to know!

But Ron Whitten should now show us what that was that conclusively shows Burbeck Sr designed The Black.

Because if there isn't anything more that Whitten based his conclusion on other that Burbeck Jr's word then Ron Whitten is wrong to make such a questionable conclusion based on a bunch of indirect assumptions.

I don't know Ron Whitten from Adam, except he co-wrote a really useful tome on architecture. There are a lot of people who seem to respect Ron Whitten for what he's done for architecture and people's awareness of it.

As for his article writing and how he does his research I don't know that either, except for one article. He wrote an article about Merion giving Gil Hanse and Bill Kittleman co-attribution for co-designing Merion with Wilson and Flynn, apparently without checking first with either Merion or Hanse and Kittleman! And I do know that the fallout from that article is still being felt today!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2002, 01:49:27 PM »
Here is another article, not much new info but Joe, Jr. is sure making the rounds.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-till092699945may09.story?coll=ny-nyc-sports-headlines
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2002, 06:36:03 AM »
It sure didn't take Golf Magazine long to give Burbeck credit for being the lead designer of the Black.

http://www.golfcourse.com/search/coursedtl_ga.cfm?source=GA&courseid=10287
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: NY Times - Bethpage - Son Claims His Father De
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2002, 08:10:46 AM »
This is how assumptions become conclusions and conclusions become "reality".

I've always heard good things about Ron Whitten and his contributions to architectural understanding.

This time, however, he needs to come up with more than a son, a mother and wife who appear to have been upset about something that happened to Joe Burbeck!

Whitten has to know he should come up with real documented proof about what Burbeck really did do at Bethpage Black or else at the very least he should simply leave this issue alone!

I'll go alone with some of you about how much benefit Whitten has been to architecture to an extent but in this case his research ability doesn't impress me in the slightest--unless there's something about what he's written about who designed The Black that I've missed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »