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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Those awful catch basins
« on: June 02, 2002, 06:01:02 PM »
You can always tell a bad golf course design, because the catch basins all come into play.

Evidence no. 93: 4th round of this year's Kemper Open at TPC Avenel, when Bob Burns hits a pretty good shot to the 16th hole, it catches a weird roll off and tumbles into a greenside catch basin, whence he makes a six.

That course is an abomination because the housing is so close they have no way to sheet flow the water so they have to cram it up with catch basins. But they are too close into lines of play.

Bad designs rely upon catch basins when their architects have ignored the basics of sound design, which is drainage, drainage, drainage. The old guys (Ross, esp.) knew that the ball would flow where the water flowed, and so they gave lots of roll offs and integrated them. Today's designers all too often don't care, and they solve all of their problems with drains that come into play. Yes, sometimes their work is confined by wetlands, cart paths or real estates. But if the quality of the golf design suffers, then all the reason in the world doesn't matter, because it's a bad design.

It's sophisticated way of critiquing the fold course; watch the use of catch basins and you'll learn a lot about design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bruceski

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2002, 06:18:53 PM »
Shouldn't Bob Burns be able to negotiate that chip shot? Did he not fire the ball at a sucker pin? Didn't Bob Estes show us how to play the correct approach shot (away from the pin to the right)?

Aren't collection areas adjacent to greens legitimate alternatives to simply placing deep rough? They provide greater variety to the short game.

Is Avenel really a bad design? I beg to differ. To me that course provides a lot of challenge utilizing a variety of hole types, hazards, and elevation changes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2002, 06:27:24 PM »
Funny you bring up this topic as I was just discussing catch basins and drainage with a friend as we were reviewing a new course in central New Jersey.  It was loaded with catch basins which I have always despised.  I said the same thing to him as you said here, they are a result of poor design and poor drainage.  

Some might find this peculiar, but one of the neatest things to watch is a golf course "drain".  After a thunderstorm at Lehigh, I love to watch how Flynn moved the water across his golf course.  You just shake your head in amazement.  It is shear genius!

It's also a great way to learn the subtle breaks in greens  ;)
Mark
 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2002, 06:35:33 PM »
Here's a catch basin question for the experts:
I recently played at Isleworth in Orlando, a top flight private club.  At one point, I was in the left rough and noticed an unusual sight - on top of a manufactured ridge, maybe 18" above the adjacent rough and fairway, there was a catch basin!  Could this be in case of a flood?  It was pretty crazy in that location.  Drainage is apparently an ongoing problem - there were a number of mucky areas on the course. ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2002, 06:40:00 PM »
Here's a catch basin question for the experts:
I recently played at Isleworth in Orlando, a top flight private club.  At one point, I was in the left rough and noticed an unusual sight - on top of a manufactured ridge, maybe 18" above the adjacent rough and fairway, there was a catch basin!  Could this be in case of a flood?  It was pretty crazy in that location.  Drainage is apparently an ongoing problem - there were a number of mucky areas on the course. ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2002, 07:14:01 PM »
Brad,

As much as I like Old Marsh, I hate the catch basins there.

I realize that they had some unique problems with wetlands and marshes, but they detract from the positive elements of the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bm

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2002, 07:40:25 PM »
Bill,

Sounds like that catchbasin was probably an inspection chamber for a blance pipe, not supposed to take in water - however it also sounds like it was not tied in very well, maybe a discrepancy between the grading plans and the civil engineering plans. Either that or a f*&^ up - which also happen from time to time.

A place like Florida I assume has plenty of rainfall and you just cannot sheet flow for more than perhaps 100 feet in high rainfall areas without causing erosion and problems when you do eventually catch the water. We all know catchbasins arent ideal but rwe should understand a golf course's need to be well drained is a higher priority than aestetics and/or playability.

I work in high rainfall areas where we can get say 12 inches of rain in less than an hour and believe me you need a sh** load of catchbasins, and plenty of pipe - not to mention about 50 kilometres of subsoil drainage!

Oh and even in this sort of environment, the chances of hitting a sprinkler head around a green and bouncing off into oblivion are much greater than hitting a catchbasin.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2002, 09:19:24 PM »
Brad,

I don't know if adding catch basins could properly be called "ignoring the basics of sound design, drainage, drainage, drainage."

Like everything else, things change.  I believe the biggest change is the need to be good immediately.  As bm suggests, water collects from sheet flow to erosive flow in under 250 feet.  (He says 100 in Florida)  Letting water run farther than that causes erosion, which makes the course less than perfect at opening, which means its less likely to make any "Best New" list, even if conditioning is not supposedly considered, because it really is in most raters minds, and which means it will be difficult to attract customers in a tight market, etc., etc., etc.

What most forget is that those long Ross or Flynn drainage swales have had 4" french drains added over time, and those don't work too well anyway.  (When have the French been known for engineering skills, anyway?)

An older generation was much more patient than we are, to boot......Hence, more catch basins!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2002, 10:05:59 PM »
Jeff Brauer,
Don't pay any mind to the Exocet missle aimed at the core of your ideas.

Also, have you ever been to Riviera? Some of the best drainage work the game has ever seen was done at that course by Billy P. Bell.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

bm

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2002, 01:12:52 AM »
Is Riviera sand based? That obviously makes a huge difference to drainage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

The European Observer

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2002, 02:03:46 AM »
The French drain. Sounds exotic, continental, elegant, sophisticated, oui? Brings to mind the way the farmers, vintners, and orchardists of Provence drain their water, n'est pas? Pretty slick name for that simple, efficient drain around the perimeter of some basements, golf courses, oui, cherè?


Non, mon ami. You're all wet if you think French drains have anything whatsoever to do with France. In fact, they were invented in Concord by Henry French, father of sculptor Daniel Chester French, whom we must flood with congratulations for their effectiveness.

Henry French was a judge and farmer, and as the latter a veritable fount of information on drainage. He was a great local source to tap on the subject, one which farmers with wet fields, barns, and roads lapped right up. In fact, his knowledge was so deep and unsinkable, he wrote a lengthy book on the subject, one whose subtitle is so long it takes a moment to fully drink in:

Farm Drainage
The Principles, Processes, and Effects of Draining Land with Stones, Wood, Plows, and Open Ditches and Espcially with Tiles< Including Tables of Rain-Fall, Evaporation, Filtration, Evcavation, Capacity of Pipes; Cost and Number to the Acre, of Tiles, Etc,

Alors, let's not slag off our French cousins.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2002, 02:09:55 AM »
Brad, I swear I wasn't necessarily thinking about you but I was watching that tournament and when Burns hit that shot and the ball started filtering to the back of that green, to the slope, then down it and when I saw that drain and the ball roll onto it, the first thing I thought about was someone's going to mention this on Golfclubatlas!

How to correct that on a course like that? You got me but the first thing I might think to do in a spot like that is not to put a shaved "chipping area" in a spot like that with a drain at the low point where every single ball coming in contact with that entire area will find its way to the bottom and that drain!

I hate to say it but that's probably an area for grass higher than a "chipping area" so all balls won't get to that spot!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2002, 06:52:24 AM »
Dear Euro Observer,

Thanks for the information on French Drains.

Mark Fine -

You have the soul of an architect if you stand in the rain to watch a golf course drain!  I once had a professor who took us out to watch creeks flood, as well.  It is fascinating.  

Tommy,

I have played Riviera three times, and seen it twice for tournaments.  

I wonder, what is your specific idea of what makes it the best drainage work ever?  I know it had to be pretty good, because the course is in the bottom of a canyon, and is near the ultimate outlet (the ocean) so it must carry water from a substantial portion of So Cal!  I also know that the course had its share of drainage improvements over the years, like large pipes below the birancas, etc., so it wassn't perfect the day Billy Bell left the site, but then again, no course is.

Going back to Brad's original point, we often get off on tangents based on one observation of something, like a tour pro hitting of turf near a catch basin.  Based on my own experience, I have rarely had a catch basin come into play, even on courses with lots of them in fairway and green surrounds areas.  On the other hand, I have had my ball come to rest in muck lots of times, even in fairways and around green areas.  Assuming my experience is typical, what's worse?  A few basins, or a lot of wet areas?

Brad's original post doesn't consider the probems of draining a housing course versus a 160 acre upland farm that Ross typically built his courses on, nor the rising drainage standards often imposed by local governments.  It would be nice if the houses were back far enough to allow drainage features to be totally out of play.

BTW, rereading Brad's post, its not clear if the catch basin cover was on.  Did Burns need to play from the bottom of the catch basin, because that WOULD be a ridiculous shot!

And this doesn't even consider the operators point of view....I just spent boatloads of money on this thing, and have had some lucrative outing business booked for six months, and now I have to give refunds because it rained last night!  And, this guy is going to book his lucrative outing business somewhere else every succeeding year, because I only had one chance to make a first impression!  

Those factors were less in play in the older, slower paced days.  If your private club was wet, you gutted it out, or just waited.  Your dues were already paid and there was not much else to do!

PS- I think I am exocet proofed, after 25 years in the business, and two years on the GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2002, 07:40:02 AM »
Regarding chipping areas, here is another dilemma on whether to put the basin in the fairway as opposed to farther out in the rough.....

I have seen lots of basins located just in the rough to avoid the visual impact of being in the fairway.  However, the longer cut of rough slows down the flow, resulting in a wetter fairway than if the basin were just in the short cut.

Little known bit of trivia regarding golf course drainage....In most drainage designs, the size of the catch basin is the limiting factor in drain capacity, not pipe size.  Thus, when greens committees (or whoever) decide to use smaller catch basins to reduce visual impact, they still see them, and they don't work as well!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ferdie Delesseps

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2002, 07:46:36 AM »
Do not forget La Compagnie Universelle du Canal Maritime de Suez!!!

Your low regard for French engineering infuriates >:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2002, 07:59:14 AM »
Ferdie,

Je regrets.  I know there are some French engineers.  I rented a house to one who came over on a joint venture with LTV here in Dallas.  It seems he developed the effective cluster bomb that we used so effectively in the Gulf War.  It was fascinating listening to him speak of his terrible inventions - one that he could hardly conceal his glee that it worked as envisioned, yet one he had hoped would never have to be used.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2002, 08:23:36 AM »
Jeff,

the catch basin cover was on, so Bob Burns got a free life. He didn't have the hardest shot, and getting down in four from there was pretty sloppy on his part. But the real problem that spawned this post was the proximity of a steep drain into a catch basin so near to a ridge in the back middle of the green, so that a shot close to the pin rolls off, down and away.

I certainly appreciate the technical difficulty of drainage, and esp. the issue which you so nicely illustrate about limiting the drainage run before it becomes an erosion problem.

Apparently, the problem is as much about soil type and pre-existing surface contour as it is about limits posed by cart paths, wetlands and adjacent housing. For example, you have no catch basins at Pinehurst No. 2 because there's nothing but a sand base and no infringement on property lines for the water to flow out. The result is great chipping areas. Not so for TPC Avenel, where there are numerous constraints. I don't know the answer. But I do know that the contour in question in the back middle of the 16th green should not be running so steeply into a drain. The surace water on that green could be taken out a variety of ways, and TEPaul's suggestion about some longer grass over the catch basin would also have helped.

Brad
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2002, 10:14:53 AM »
European Observer --

Pretty funny e-mail address you give there, with your post: gaston@chaudmail.com. (Note to those without background in French: "chaud" means "hot.")

A guy clever enough to come up with that should be clever enough to give credit where credit is due, don't you think?

I'm guessing you know that you lifted your remarks on the history of the French drain directly from "Concord Magazine: The Ezine for and about Concord, Massachusetts," by someone named Deborah Bier.

The rest of you will find HER (emphasis added) further notes on the subject at http://www.concordma.com/magazine/janfeb00/frenchdrains.html.

Plagiarism is a crime against humanity. Wouldn't you agree, European Observer?
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2002, 10:40:28 AM »
Jeff Brauer,

Shame on you.

Don't you understand, this group wants PERFECTION in every situation from modern day designers, and.....
They don't want you to list the complicating real life factors which affect a given issue.

At a 1928* Tucker golf course, the drainage work has been
EXTENSIVE since the original architect left the property.

In 1928 cart damage in wet weather wasn't even dreamed of.

Members didn't scream at the President, Green Chairman or Superintendent if the course was closed due to wet conditions.

The course drained well, but not well enough for modern standards, (equipment and members)

In 1928 the club could open dams to lakes and retention ponds at will, not needing regulatory approval to do so, as is required today.  The course could drain and dry out faster, with not regard to downstream consequences.
 
Jeff, PERFECTION is an absolute requirement, unless you fall under grandfathered status.  Be more careful, next time  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2002, 10:44:28 AM »
How much of this drainage issue is derived from developers unwilling to give up space for lots?

I am not familiar with the shot yesterday but am always amazed at how tightly developers place the homesites to the line of play.  Afterall the course sells the lots!  The lots pay the developer.  And the developer could care less about the future of the golfcourse after he is gone.  

This assumption would require that the builder dispose of the runoff as quickly as possible or end up with an unsellable wet lot.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2002, 11:07:43 AM »
Pat,

Great point on cart damage.  Another nail in the coffin for those who believe we can still do things the way they used to.  Regional flood control issues didn't even cross my mind in the earlier post either, but should.  One of the great things about being an architect is that you get to learn a little about a lot of things most people don't think about.

On your other musings, I can't be sure greens committees didn't wreak havoc in the old days.  After all, Mac, Ross and Tillie all open their books with diatribes against the work of greens chairmen and committees.  It seems little changes.

I am used to offending the GCA faithful with real world considerations.  In fact, I guess you could say I sort of enjoy it!  I am still worried about offending the french with my earlier post, as they may cut off my wine supply.....

"Do you have a good cabernet?"

"Not for you, Mr. Brauer, you offended the French!"

PS - I am one of the few who don't find the French rude.  Once, when trying to find Orly Field in Paris, a nice woman actually went twenty miles out of the way to lead me right there!  Of course, just mentioning the stereotype of french rudeness probably lands me right back in the grape vats with Ferdie! ;)

PPS - Little known French wine fact.....In 1902, they had a freeze, and repopulated the wine country with vines from.....Sherman, Texas!  So, its all Texas wine anyway, and I can always get that! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2002, 12:48:36 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

In 1902 I believe it was an outbreak of athlete's foot among the peasants, and not a freeze, but I could be wrong.
Dr. Scholls footpowder like golf carts were not an option at the time.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2002, 04:10:51 PM »
I AM the authority on the 16th ;)  - I was a marshall on the hole half day Thursday, Friday and all day Saturday and saw a couple hundred shots into the green. The catch basins left and to the rear of the green look stupidly out of place, like sinks with a drain hole in the middle. The green is stuck into the side of a hill so there must have been concern about water moving off the hill during one of the famous Kemper downpours. But it seemed that there were other obvious ways to move the water off and away from the green.

Not only did Burns get a bad break, on Saturday Norman hit through the green (the ball seemed to skid when it hit) and landed in the drainage pit at the rear. He bogied from about 20 feet. Several other players landed their shots close to where Norman landed his and had their balls roll just to the edge of the close cut area. All either birdied or parred from just 6 feet in front of where Norman was. I think if Norman played the shot 10 times, half the time it would take him 3 to get down.

The field was the weakest in years, maybe ever. Are the pros tiring of the course? They weren't happy with it from the outset, and the changes didn't improve it that much. For the next 5 years, the tournament will be either the week before or the week after the USOpen. I won't be surprised if next year there are no top 20 money winners playing.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie struthers

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2002, 05:23:45 PM »
8) 8) 8)


Hate em! Hate em! Hate em!

At least thats my opinion.

I think catch basins look fake, contrived and ugly, but other than that they don't bother me too much.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Those awful catch basins
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2002, 08:57:41 PM »
Next time anyone on here wants to brag on Bandon Dunes. Play 13 a few times or anyone of 6 or 7 other holes and see how many times you are at the bottom of one. I am one that finds catch basins to be one of the worst trends in the so called modern designs or drainage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »