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Lawrence Largent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2009, 10:50:36 PM »
I was told that The main guy involved had some health problems and his grand children had pulled the plug on the finances. 

Lawrence

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2009, 02:49:07 PM »
I was told that The main guy involved had some health problems and his grand children had pulled the plug on the finances. 

Lawrence

And that's that?  Any new news on the Dormie Club?  I hope the above statement is referring to a temporary event, and not an absolute...

Mr. Sweeney, what happened to your charge towards "the ultimate club"?  It was rather exciting!

Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2009, 03:19:33 PM »
What's Powerball at? Let's start a GCA pool, buy some tickets, and use our not so guaranteed winnings to keep the Dormie club afloat with the large national membership model that has been suggested.

And the other half of the proceeds can be used to make sure Wicked Pony is finished as well - a wonderful East Coast/West Coast dual club membership sounds like a plan.

Peter Wagner

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2009, 04:44:27 PM »
I looked at this project briefly back in January and February with the idea of buying and completing the club.  I exited the discussions pretty quickly as the numbers just don't work in today's marketplace.  To bad too because the 7 1/2 holes that are completed are very exciting and the vision for the club was spot on.  I'm no expert but I would say a completed Dormie has the potential to be C&C's best work to date.

The problem is that completing a project like this requires a.) lots of cash in a time when banks won't lend on golf projects; and b.) further expenses at 100 cents on the dollar in a market where completed clubs are being bought and sold for very deep discounts.

I like Dormie a lot and I wish the best for whomever completes the project. 

- PW
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 04:50:19 PM by Peter Wagner »

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2009, 02:24:15 AM »
For context - How much would it likely cost to complete the Dormie club?

Is this a situation where the Donald or the Sultan of Brunei needs to swoop in?

I never thought a walking course would be THAT expensive, even paying a great design team a reasonable fee.

Jim Nugent

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2009, 02:43:26 AM »
I looked at this project briefly back in January and February with the idea of buying and completing the club.  I exited the discussions pretty quickly as the numbers just don't work in today's marketplace.  To bad too because the 7 1/2 holes that are completed are very exciting and the vision for the club was spot on.  I'm no expert but I would say a completed Dormie has the potential to be C&C's best work to date.

The problem is that completing a project like this requires a.) lots of cash in a time when banks won't lend on golf projects; and b.) further expenses at 100 cents on the dollar in a market where completed clubs are being bought and sold for very deep discounts.

I like Dormie a lot and I wish the best for whomever completes the project. 

- PW

Wouldn't your points a.) and b.) apply to any courses that haven't been finished and are on hold for economic/financial reasons?

Quite a strong statement that Dormie could be C&C's best course.  U.S. top 10. 

Peter Wagner

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2009, 09:25:21 AM »

Wouldn't your points a.) and b.) apply to any courses that haven't been finished and are on hold for economic/financial reasons?

Jim,
Yes and that's why I phrased it as "...completing a project like this requires...". 


Quite a strong statement that Dormie could be C&C's best course.  U.S. top 10. 

Perhaps, but that was the goal from the outset and in my opinion the quality of design, the quality of construction, and the management philosophy were all coming together to create something really special.

One day this project will be completed and then we'll all find out how well Dormie turned out. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2009, 10:54:27 AM »
I heard the owner wanted to sell but wanted 1999 type money or at least wanted to be made whole.  I guess the guy is in denial.   I also heard there are offers at 30 cents on the dollar but the owner isn't interested.   

Jim Nugent

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2009, 11:00:35 AM »
I heard the owner wanted to sell but wanted 1999 type money or at least wanted to be made whole.  I guess the guy is in denial.   I also heard there are offers at 30 cents on the dollar but the owner isn't interested.   

Does he own the land free and clear of debt? 

fwiw, real estate prices have a long way to go before they hit bottom, imo.  In another year or so, 30 cents on the dollar may look like a great offer. 

Peter Wagner

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2009, 11:38:50 AM »
For context - How much would it likely cost to complete the Dormie club?

Is this a situation where the Donald or the Sultan of Brunei needs to swoop in?

I never thought a walking course would be THAT expensive, even paying a great design team a reasonable fee.

Hi Rob,

'Expensive' is a relative word and even more so in today's economy.  It wouldn't be correct to discuss this club's details but I think I can show it from an investor's viewpoint. 

Right now in the U.S. clubs are being listed for sale at roughly 25% of the cost to originally build.  I looked at 2 more last week and both were about the same: $28M to build course and clubhouse 6 years ago and now for sale at asking price of $6M.  Both will go unsold for a while because the market is lower than that.  My investment dollars have at least 4 times the buying power in this market but only if I buy completed and financially distressed golf property.

Now look at any partially finished project in comparison.  My investment dollars go straight into construction on a 100% basis.  Labor and materials aren't discounted, nor should they be as nobody works for free (well except board members of private clubs).

As an investor which way would you go?  Buying completed and distressed properties with at least 4 to 1 buying leverage or building new at 1 to 1?  All 100% dollar projects are expensive when compared to what is out there right now.

However, not all golf projects are built as profit producing businesses.  Some get built as labors of love with no intention of profit.  Not many, but some.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2009, 01:04:52 PM »
I say swap the possible sale of World Woods for the Dormie Club...Everyone's a winner.  Affordable golf remains and what sounds like a spectacular club gets finished.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 01:34:22 PM by Cliff Hamm »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 01:23:49 PM »
i got a tour of Dormie last fall and it looked awesome...i hope it gets done somehow, someday
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 01:27:32 PM »
Peter,
     It is interesting to read about how you evaluate these investments. Any idea what percentage of golf courses make a profit? How much of profitability is based on number of rounds played versus the construction costs? Or are there just too many variables to easily ascertain what contributes to profitability?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Peter Wagner

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 03:05:06 PM »
Peter,
     It is interesting to read about how you evaluate these investments. Any idea what percentage of golf courses make a profit? How much of profitability is based on number of rounds played versus the construction costs? Or are there just too many variables to easily ascertain what contributes to profitability?

Hi Ed,

I've written 3 or 4 lengthy articles on this subject but I hit the back button each time because of the sensitive nature of a club's financials.  I have compassion for those that struggle and I'm trying to avoid putting salt in the wound.  The details are fascinating and together would make a really good series of case studies that would prove helpful for future new projects.  I just have to figure out a way write about it without kicking those that are already down.


Contrary to the many doom and gloom reports that we all read there are many clubs that are financially sound.  In fact, change 'many' to most.  However, there are two big issues that even financially sound clubs need to be aware of are:

1.) Deflation.  Lets say I were to buy a private club in your favorite city at maybe 10 cents on the dollar (easily possible right now) out of chapter 11 bankruptcy (sec 363).  My cash investment might be 3M and I would have zero debt and I would own a club that cost 30M to build.  Among other things this would allow me the opportunity to drastically lower the clubs initiation fee and dues because my overhead just dropped by a ton.  And if successful then it would put significant pressure on the competitor courses in the area. 

Imagine if memberships were previously being sold at 100k (equity) but under my new ownership I drop the price to 10k (non-equity).  Think of the impact to a financially healthy neighboring club that might be priced at 75k.  I would have a better product priced much cheaper.  That forces the 75k equity club take some kind of action.

2.) Equity memberships.  The 2nd earthquake to hit a stable club is the loss of real equity in the club as prices fall.  In my example above the 75k club would be forced to lower their initiation fees but if they were an equity club they could be faced with the very real chance that a members promised equity exceeds the new initiation fee.  Every time an old member leaves and new one enters the club would lose money.

Now multiply points 1 & 2 by hundreds of courses across the U.S. and think about the impact to currently financially stable clubs.


This one-two punch is very real and it's beginning to happen now.  Private clubs should take action now to avoid being harmed.  #1 above can be somewhat avoided by a drastic cost cutting campaign and by leading the way down on price in the area.  #2 can be avoided by meeting with the members to look at the problem of equity.  Voluntary equity give back programs will be needed to minimize the club's exposure.

Point #1 also applies to public courses.  For example, lets say I bought a real cool but expensive member for a day course in your area.  Same thing 10 cents on the dollar. I'd lease half of the too-large clubhouse out as cool office space and drop my daily fee from $130 to $42.  What impact does that have on the neighboring courses?  It will be tough to defend against this eventual reality.

All of this is bad news if you own a club today - but great news for golfers and fantastic news for the future of our sport.  Almost all fees will deflate to much lower numbers.  Many unneeded luxuries will be trimmed from clubs and the quality of the golf course will be front and center.  In other words, we get to go back to just golf!  Pretty cool.


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 03:19:55 PM »
Sounds like a perfect time for localized collusion.

Peter Wagner

Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »
Sounds like a perfect time for localized collusion.

Yes!  That would work!

- PW

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2009, 08:05:47 PM »
Peter,
   Thanks for the feedback. What is the incentive for the voluntary equity give back? Other than survival.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2009, 08:22:29 PM »
   Thanks for the feedback. What is the incentive for the voluntary equity give back? Other than survival.

Ed,

You're over there now, would you just write a check and buy the place already?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2009, 08:45:15 PM »
Survival is the name of the game today. One club in the suburban Baltimore market cut its equity buy in from 35K when the club first opened about 15 years ago to 5K recently.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2009, 02:32:54 PM »
Really sorry to hear about Dormie Club. It would have been fantastic as these photos reveal:

Mike Sweeney

Re: Dormie Club Axed ? New
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2009, 07:00:23 AM »
Really sorry to hear about Dormie Club. It would have been fantastic as these photos reveal:

"Fully 10 years after the idea of ideal links first came to its designer and four years after initial construction began, the National Golf Links finally opened to membership play in 1910." - from The Evangelist of Golf by George Bahto.

I have to admit, I thought it would take them longer but happy to hear it is getting back on track.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 06:03:56 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Stephen Britton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dormie Club Axed ?
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2009, 08:09:46 PM »
So is the course still being maintained or have they literally walked away from it?

I know Jim Evans left Augusta National to grow in the course and be Superintendent and Paul Oglesby left Merion to take the Head Pro job???

Dunlop,

Those photos look great.

Does anyone have more photos of the finished holes?
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

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