[Patrick_Mucci]

TomD:

Wouldn't you says that TOC must be the widest over-all fairways on one of the world's over-all narrowest sites?

I think it may be and who can say there isn't a whole lot of irony in that in the context of the history and evolution of golf course architecture? Matter of fact, the site's over-all narrowness is probably the very reason the course needed to have such wide fairways! 

In other words, if the site wasn't that narrow do you really think its fairways would be as wide as they are?

TEPaul,

The same could be said about NGLA

[Bradley Anderson]

Augusta has the widest fairways I have ever seen. The new rough that they introduced in 2001 definitely reduces roll, but it actually plays more like a fairway lie than a rough lie.

And now that I think of it, wasn't Bobby Jones imitating TOC with those wide Augusta fairways?

I haven't been back to Augusta since 2001, but from what I saw then, it was remarkable how wide the fairways were, and yet the fairways did not overwhelm the other features of the holes, nor did they seem excessive. Maybe those huge pines kind of balance the perspective? All I know is I have never seen such enormous fairways work so well in a golf hole as they do at Augusta. For instance, there are some big fairways at Blackwolf Run and they just feel like a lot of bentgrass was put there to make some kind of statement.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,

ANGC's fairways remain wide by any standard, they're just not as wide as they used to be.

Irrespective of the green complexes, wide fairways translate to FUN.

ANGC, Seminole, NGLA and TOC have that quality.

They present a challenge that's enjoyable for every level of amateur golfer from any set of tees.

Sand Hills, Wildhorse, Hidden Creek, GCGC and the courses at Bandon also provide relatively wide fairways, which I believe contribute substantially to their popularity and success.

Amateurs have diverse shot patterns and wide fairways tolerate the large margins of error they produce.

[BCrosby]

Speaking of wide fw's, I ran across a Travis article recently in which he recommended that all "fair greens" be 75 yards wide.

I love the width of the Scranton fw's. But that width isn't put to the uses I expected. The closer you look, the less strategic the course seems to be. The green bunkering, fw bunkering and fw trees don't sync up the way I would have thought.

As Jeff and Mike Young so astutely note above, this is yet another instance of an architect failing to consult first with posters at GCA. Sheeesh.

Bob

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley,

ANGC's fairways remain wide by any standard, they're just not as wide as they used to be.

Irrespective of the green complexes, wide fairways translate to FUN.

ANGC, Seminole, NGLA and TOC have that quality.

They present a challenge that's enjoyable for every level of amateur golfer from any set of tees.

Sand Hills, Wildhorse, Hidden Creek, GCGC and the courses at Bandon also provide relatively wide fairways, which I believe contribute substantially to their popularity and success.

Amateurs have diverse shot patterns and wide fairways tolerate the large margins of error they produce.

It seems to me Patrick that at NGLA and Augusta there are two or three greens within each green, and so naturally there should be different ways to approach them, and that would require wide fairways. But if the greens are not intricate and varied that way, wide fairways are not as interesting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,

Many of the greens at NGLA do not have greens within greens.

However, many have unique configurations/presentations, and I believe that in conjunction with the wide fairways makes for interesting and challenging golf.

In addition, many of the fairways have unique, random bunkering/bunkering patterns, which also work well in conjunction with wide fairways.

And, as always, any time there are good winds that sweep a site, wide fairways are almost always a requirement for good golf.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

It's interesting what you say about the wide fairways at Scranton (in the aerial?) not particularly serving much of a strategic purpose. Personally, to really determine such a thing I think one pretty much needs to be on the ground and consider a lot of factors to determine how strategic the width really is.

But your point is a good one, if it's the point you're making----eg fairways should probably serve a strategic purpose to be wide. Of course I guess one could argue what all serving a strategic purpose means.

The wide fairways I encourage the restoration of, though, are examples such as Shinnecock's #8. That fairway is fairly wide today but the fact is the original fairway area that's ideal to approach most of that green from way out on the left is still in rough.


Pat:

The greens I would say are real "greens within a green" at NGLA number about 6 or so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think that's about right depending upon one's definition of a green within a green.

As you know, Shinnecock's fairways were allowed to contract to approximately half their acreage.  While some acreage has been restored, more could/should be restored.

That's another course where wide fairways heighten the enjoyment of playing the golf course, especially when you consider how windy the site is.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bob,

I mentioned the lack of strategy above.  For all the wide fw, the greens mostly appear to have pinching bunkers on both sides and very narrow openings.  There appears to be no reason to carry some of the carry bunkers or skirt some of the skirting bunkers.

BTW, it raises an interesting notion that fw could be TOO wide.  What if playing 15-20 yards to the right of fw center allowed the frontal opening, but the fw was 75 yards wide (i.e. 37.5 yards to either side) Is their any strategy if you have cushion to miss the prime spot on both sides?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I think that's about right depending upon one's definition of a green within a green."


Patrick:

Look Pal, one's definition of a green within a green has nothing to do with it. Since I invented that term the only definition that matters is my definition. And if I say there are only six or so real "greens within a green" at NGLA then that's all there are, end of story, period, over and out, and finito.

Got that?

Good, now don't forget it!


And don't go trying to tell me the definiton of "IMM", "Turbo Boosts", "Anti-Turbo Boosts", "Conceptual Copies" or "Gay Architecture" either!

[Sean_A]

I honestly can't tell about the strategy of some of these fairway widths without having some acquaintance with the course or some ground level pix.  A lot would depend on how the greens and fairways slope.  That said, there is inherently more strategy to wider fairways if the #1 goal is for the player to find and his ball.  Of course, there is something to be said for the lost ball strategy, but if one is going to err I would suggest that like planning for a meal, it is better to have too much than not enough.  Leave it up to diners to decide how much they choose to eat.  I think the single biggest problem with modern designs is the archie overly dictates the shot strategy/options.  Some of that may be down to cost savings, but then its hard to explain all the bunkering.  To be honest, I think a lot of this issue has to do with archies/developers being afraid of getting a rep for building "easy" courses - which of course brings us full circle  back to the (negative imo) influence of championship golf.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"As you know, Shinnecock's fairways were allowed to contract to approximately half their acreage.  While some acreage has been restored, more could/should be restored."


Patrick:

You should be happy to know they are continuing to work on that as Pine Valley is with their trees. The only difference is neither one of them happens to be on your particular recommended schedule for doing it.  

[TEPaul]

"Of course, there is something to be said for the lost ball strategy,"


Sean Arble:

That is more than just a bit of a remarkable statement! To think that you or someone you know may actually look at strategy in golf that way.

I'm sure it's possible somewhere and with someone but to think that anyone may actually think to himself on a tee:

"Now let's see, it just might be ideal strategically if I lose my ball first and then attack the hole from that interesting development."

Do you know what generally happens to golfers who even begin to think things like that Sean Arble? Well I do amigo. What happens is they quite quickly start to shank the ball and find it very very hard to stop shanking the ball.

You go to bed now and get a good rest; you may even try to dream about pack after pack of corgis going both over and under post and rail fences, and perhaps tomorrow this madness and confusion of yours will be over and done with!

[Sean_A]

"Of course, there is something to be said for the lost ball strategy,"


Sean Arble:

That is more than just a bit of a remarkable statement! To think that you or someone you know may actually look at strategy in golf that way.

Tom

Hhmmm.  Lost ball strategy is what I think much of championship golf is about.  Designers building a course or some goofy association seting up a course to be so penal that even some of the world's best players can't break 80.  I thought this sort of design deserved a fitting label.

Ciao

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

NGLA is a place that I dream about playing some day. I hope you appreciate how fortunate you have been to make a players study of that golf course.

The scale of that golf course is amazing to behold even in photos. There appear to be so many options for getting there.

Next time you have one of your legendary rounds there, you should give us all a shot by shot account of it and why you chose one route over another. Now that would be some fun reading here.

We get all of our golf stories from the Tigers and the Jacks, but NGLA is a place where the Patricks can spin as good a story----maybe even a better story, because it is a place where golf mortals can prevail if they put a lot of thought into their shots.

Isn't that the essence of golf course architecture really when you boil it all down?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"As you know, Shinnecock's fairways were allowed to contract to approximately half their acreage.  While some acreage has been restored, more could/should be restored."


Patrick:

You should be happy to know they are continuing to work on that as Pine Valley is with their trees. The only difference is neither one of them happens to be on your particular recommended schedule for doing it.  

Everyone makes mistakes, but at least they're moving in the right direction.

Had they listened to me when I first made my suggestions, years ago, they'd be done with those projects by now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley Anderson,

I'll try to do that.
Perhaps I'll embark upon a hole by hole narrative over the remainder of the winter.

In the meantime, I'd recommend reading George Bahto's book, "The Evangelist of Golf" for some insight into NGLA and CBM.

[Bradley Anderson]

Patrick,

I have read the book.

You should write a hole by hole description. And you should write about it from your own perspective - how you play it. Maybe some other guys will jump in and give their versions of how they play those holes. That would be interesting to read the different ways that those holes play for different players.

I'm sure Tom won't mind if you borrow some of his terminology. What the hell, we're all using the internet that he invented anyways. Right?

[TEPaul]

"The scale of that golf course is amazing to behold even in photos. There appear to be so many options for getting there."

Bradley:

Actually, as I see it and know it there are basically three options for getting to NGLA. You can take a left off Rte 27 about a half mile before Shinnecock and go past the 8th and 11th hole and then take a left, or you can go through Shinnecock to the stop sign and then take a left or you can go past Shinnecock, get a nice sophisticated cup of coffee near Southampton and then back track to NGLA.

But on reflection there's a fourth option. You can take a boat there.

But seriously, if you feel the way you say you do about it we will definitely get you there somehow. A guy like you has just got to see it because you know how to totally appreciate it, its era, whatever. but first there's MERION for you! 

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

You're right, everyone probably makes mistakes at some point; except for you of course! 

[Bradley Anderson]

How about back in the day when people used to play Shinecock and cross over to National? Now that is one hell of an arrival!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley,

I'll try to begin the hole by hole description later this week or over the weekend.

I've been thinking about it and it should be fun.

Interestingly, "THE AIR" has a lot to do with how the course plays.
You can get some HEAVY air on that golf course, which impacts your strategy, and, the WIND is always a factor.

TEPaul,

You're right again.

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, any chance you can take along a photographer? 

[Ed Homsey]

Back to Sean's original questions about "Great Fairway Configurations":  Since he gave us that great aerial of the CC of Scranton's Travis layout, I decided to see if I could find anything that would provide evidence of Travis's opinions regarding fairway widths and contour.

Checking some original Travis hole maps, I found fairways that were up to 75 yards wide though for most of those I examined, the max was around 60 yards.  He was adamant about "fairway outlines" as seen in this communication to the President of Louisville Country Club in 1924:  "It would be well to have all the new fairways carefully staked out by the construction engineer in strict harmony with the plans, and the margins or outlines plowed.  In cutting, later on, see that the same lines are preserved.  You will not find this so easy, as the workmen will insist on running to straight lines, which are objectionable from a landscape standpoint, as Nature never works in straight lines...and my aim is always to simulate Nature".

He was equally as adamant about the construction of tees, i.e. that their outlines should be natural, with no straight lines.

Ed Homsey, Archivist of Travis Society

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