[Craig Sweet]

Lou..last estimate I saw was the Iraq war has cost the average taxpayer $3600...Wall Street fat cats...are you saying Rick Santilli has no friends on Wall Street?  It is his right to rant about taxpayer money bailing out mortgage holders...and I hope he included Wall Street and the banks in that rant...Last time I checked my money...and yours,  was going to prop up banks on the verge of failing...I will assume they appreciate my tax dollars keeping their job viable...and yes, as the person paying the salary...I have no sympathy for someone having to accept $500,000 in compensation for what has been poor performance...they are lucky to have a job and should STFU.

[Craig Sweet]

Lou...

Sorry, I misspoke about the cost of the Iraq war...this is from a Joint Economic Committee of Congress.

 "The higher total economic impact comes from, among other things, the cost of borrowing money to pay for the war, lost productivity, higher oil prices and the cost of health care for veterans, the committee said.

The committee calculated the average cost of both wars for a family of four would be $20,900 from 2002 to 2008. The cost for a family of four would go up to $46,400 from 2002 to 2017, the committee said."

[Joe Hancock]

Lou...

Sorry, I misspoke about the cost of the Iraq war...this is from a Joint Economic Committee of Congress.

 "The higher total economic impact comes from, among other things, the cost of borrowing money to pay for the war, lost productivity, higher oil prices and the cost of health care for veterans, the committee said.

The committee calculated the average cost of both wars for a family of four would be $20,900 from 2002 to 2008. The cost for a family of four would go up to $46,400 from 2002 to 2017, the committee said."

Craig,

Why start and stop with the Iraq War? What's been the cost to our entire families over the years for every war ever fought? Surely, every war has had it's naysayers, yet we live in relatively high security and comfort.

Adjust all dollars spent on previous wars to today's dollar, and report back please.

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Joe...

Going way back to an earlier post regarding Rick Santilli's rant, I said why stop at ranting about bailing out home mortgages...why not pick and choose what you don't want YOUR tax dollars spent on....thus....the Iraq War.

The other wars and their costs....not going there.

No one has mentioned a possible alternative to a golf sales tax...that being public golf courses closing due to lack of funds.

[Joe Hancock]

Craig,

I guess my opinion is that we don't need an alternative to a golf tax. Each state has a precedence concerning recreation and taxation. If a State has taxed other recreations and not golf, I don't know that there's a good argument against the golf tax.

A State has to manage expenditures and income, just like the rest of us ought to be doing on our own.

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Is California required to have a balance budget?

[Joe Hancock]

Is California required to have a balance budget?

I have no idea, but if I choose to use my God given ability to deduce and apply logic, it would appear that income and expense need to balance out to be fiscally responsible.

Joe

[Lou_Duran]

Craig,

For the most part, people determine how much money they make.  I know you don't believe this, but it is a fact.  I've known folks who are dumb as boards that have made great amounts of money.  I also had a colleague with a PhD who could barely feed himself.

BTW, the reason 40 - 45% of people don't pay taxes is not that they don't make very much money but because the politicians, mainly Democrats, but Bush as well, have found that they can create voting blocks to consistently control through tax policy.  In my world, every penny of income regardless of it source would be taxed at an ultra-low rate.  I would also make involuntary witholding illegal.  People by establishing voting majorities should NEVER be allowed to vote themselves benefits at someone else's cost.  We all should know that there is no free lunch and feel the pain of paying taxes directly.  In my world compassion is philanthropic in nature, not at the point of the gun.  We would take care of each other by being virtuous and giving with joy, and not by being medicated with bedtime fables of Robin Hood and his merry bureaucrats.

Again, how much of your money is being spent on the WS fat cats?  Do you have any respect for contract law?  And how about the poor jewler in Manhattan who depends on WS bonuses to feed his family?  Is it acceptable for President Obama to burn thousands of gallons of jet fuel in his 747 on weekend junkets while simultaneously admonishing corporate executives with far more impressive credentials from using their already owned or leased small corporate jets?  It's okay for Pelosi to take her peeps on a luxury retreat, but the investment banks can't hold their previously scheduled client meeting in Las Vegas?  How about those poor service employees at the various resorts who are going to lose their jobs because Obama has use his bully pulpit to shame business from travelling?  I know, the little guys are now going to get extended unemployment benefits.  Could this be the end game?  A repudiation of business, markets, and the private sector so the STATE can reign supreme?  Will Obama and the political class have their dachas across the Potomoc and switch to premium vodkas?  For Christ's sake, what does it say about our times when a former leader of the KGB is advising our president not to listen to the siren's song of socialism!

[Adam Jeselnick]

Craig -
The obvious alternative to a tax on golf is a further downward adjustment in number of golf courses relative to the total rounds played.  In 2000, over 600 million rounds of golf were played on 14,268 courses.  In 2007,  498 million rounds were played on 14,958 courses (NGF).  So, just as car companies will have to shut down factories and retail stores will close in response to a decrease in consumer sales... some golf courses will inevitably disappear..

I'm not happy about it ... but I also would not want to pay a higher tax on anything just to maintain an inflated supply.  I would much rather pay taxes on a non-discriminatory product (i.e. gasoline) that could help support alternative energy and future economic growth.
-AJ

[Jim Thompson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTTMLH9jsag

[Tony Petersen]

Glad to see that the "Red" curtain is alive & well on GCA... Christ, when did everyone become a neo-conservative... Mmm, must have missed it...

For those born choking on Silver (or Gold) spoons, sit back in your lap of luxury and throw the blame. W was in office the past 8 year and Arnie has been holding it down in CA for a while... The entire mess have been created by the administrations of the past 8 years i.e. Republicans but STILL it's Obama's fault? WTF?

Enough already. Way to gang up on Craig and Joe, crunch the numbers on "Trickle down Economics" which was a failed policy out of Latin America before Reagan and check back in...

Funny thing is I make a great income, just moved from Scottsdale to Newport Beach i.e. the Orange Curtain, so I'm surrounded by babbling Republicniks who love to be negative. That must be what's required... If you have zero optimism and were born without want, join the Republican party. Zero respect for personal freedoms, fiscally undecided and STILL able to throw the blame around even though the blame falls FIRMLY on the Republican Party and all of the failed policies from Nixon & Reagan to arguably the dumbest man to ever run for ANY public office, Mr. George W. Bush... I mean seriously, you supported McCain & Palin. Mmmm, old politics that are going nowhere coupled with a complete moron out of the Alaskan bush. Sorry, but no one has to go through 6 schools to get a frickin Undergrad Degree? Shut up, Richard, lots of people take 7 years to graduate. Yeah Tommy, there called Doctors & Lawyers...

'Nuff said. Can't wait to see you guys at the KP. Should make for some interesting late-night "discussions."

 

[Lou_Duran]

Tony,

I see that you're still spewing.  It is good to let it out, specially if you have an extra pair of pants or are in the privacy of your study.  I trust that as a result of your recent relocation from AZ to CA, the average IQ and sensitivity of both states have been raised ever so slightly.  Even in the OC, you should feel right at home.  Do stay away from Spaulding.  The guy is a cougar magnet and discouragingly long (with the driver). 

[Joe Hancock]

Tony,

You might notice that I haven't gotten into a political discussion whatsoever. I'm looking for context.

I work hard, pay my taxes and as far as I know, haven't engaged in a fraction of the hatred or bitching than I'm reading in your post. Yet, you still have no idea how I voted....

Now, on to golf and drinking, something I'm a little better at.....

Joe

[Lou_Duran]

Joe,

At least you have that, golf and drinking.  Neither are my strong suit.  Thank God for gca.com.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Removed

[Kalen Braley]

W.H.

Having lived in WA state for several years, no to be contrarian but you got it pretty good there with no state income taxes, so paying a little extra for golf isn't a big deal.

Compare this to Utah or California where you have State Income Tax and Sales Tax and it starts to pile up pretty quickly

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas...

You are a great one for lecturing about the American worker....

Next time you want something made do it yourself....use your "investment"...better yet, use your tax cut....

I don't see the rich guy in town stepping up to fill the pot holes in my street...I don't see the rich guy building a new bridge....

Government investment in infrastructure...and incentives for new technology will....will pump billions into the private sector spurring employment, and that will create additional demand...

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,

At least you have that, golf and drinking.  Neither are my strong suit.  Thank God for gca.com.

I'm really not that accomplished at drinking, but it sounds good in a Friday Night Brawl, as TEPaul always puts it!

 

[Craig Sweet]

Lou...

These guys on Wall Street weren't running around investing their money in creating jobs...they bought 2nd homes in Montana, joined clubs like Sand Hills, bought yachts....they created lots of wealth moving money and phony paper around, but created nothing of value.

The "poor jeweler" gets it....he knows it is his taxpayer dollars that is bailing out the poor performance....and in some cases out right fraud....that these guys perpetrated.  When it's his tax dollars paying their salary and keeping their bank open ...he has every right to demand compensation more in line with performance...if the poor baby CEO can't live on $500,000 let me know...I will shed a tear for him. 

[Joe Hancock]

Lou...

These guys on Wall Street weren't running around investing their money in creating jobs...they bought 2nd homes in Montana, joined clubs like Sand Hills, bought yachts....they created lots of wealth moving money and phony paper around, but created nothing of value.

Craig,

I really don't want to reply, because it's obvious that others think I'm going after you...that's not my intent.

That 2nd home in Montana was built by a bunch of people who got paid to do it, presumably using that money to support their family and maybe more....restaurants, movies, etc.

The people who work at Sand Hills get paid. I bet they use their money a lot like those folks in Montana building houses.

Yachts.....same deal.

Maybe that is creating jobs, but it at least sustains jobs, wouldn't you agree?

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Joe...

No question the building of a second home in Montana put someone to work.  However, moving money around and creating "paper wealth" with crazy derivative schemes, does not produce anything of VALUE....and I think most economist would say producing value is a better measure of a country's economic health than measuring wealth...


By the way...just saw this...

.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090221/ts_nm/us_obama_2

Looks like the tax cuts for 95% of working Americans will begin immediately.

Let the redistribution of wealth begin???

[Joe Hancock]

Craig,

My perception is that a lot of tax payer money is wasted. I pay my taxes according to whatever laws are in place each April 15th, without trying to follow all the details of what either major political party says about things.

Tax cuts can be a good thing. It makes our government have to be more frugal(efficient with money...not necessarily "cheap") with what they receive from us to provide services and support. It shouldn't automatically mean that important programs will be cut. The golf analogy would be saying that if membership dues income goes down, the greens won't get maintained, when in reality the greens will always get top priority, it's other things like flower beds that get pared back, if priorities are in check.

Joe

p.s. I'm not understanding the connection of "crazy derivative schemes" and 2nd houses, golf and yachts. 

[Craig Sweet]

Joe...

These tax cuts that are going to happen right away, will hopefully be spent right away...

[jeffwarne]

Lou...

These guys on Wall Street weren't running around investing their money in creating jobs...they bought 2nd homes in Montana, joined clubs like Sand Hills, bought yachts....they created lots of wealth moving money and phony paper around, but created nothing of value.

The "poor jeweler" gets it....he knows it is his taxpayer dollars that is bailing out the poor performance....and in some cases out right fraud....that these guys perpetrated.  When it's his tax dollars paying their salary and keeping their bank open ...he has every right to demand compensation more in line with performance...if the poor baby CEO can't live on $500,000 let me know...I will shed a tear for him. 

UMMMM.... I think buying a second home and joining a club (or for that matter buying a jet) does create jobs.

As for living on $500,000 a year and living in NYC-don't forget that roughly half goes to Federal,State, and city taxes.
and a 3 bedroom coop/apt is going to run you 1.5-3 million minimum.
A president dictating salaries is a joke and won't matter because no competent CEO will be sticking around (some may argue that's a good thing)
Look some people did some crooked things-they should be jailed, and the SEC is an absolute joke, but let's fix those problems, not run the talented people out of town and replace them with people willing to work for substantially less than a reasonable,responsible CEO with a family can afford to live on in NYC.

As for trickle down, don't you think reducing salaries of CEO's will trickle down to all who make their living in resort/service areas of NYC and surrounds? It already has-that's fine if it happens due to the inevitable nature of boom and bust-let's not fan the flames with socialism.

and while I'm at it-I have no interest in paying for someone's mortgage who refinanced to buy a jet ski,boat, and a lexus-and that's exactly what's about to happen on my block.
meanwhile,propping up property values with PLANS DOOMED TO FAIL ANYWAY-keeps values from falling to true(lower) levels .
This prohibits responsible people who have saved for a downpayment and have appropriate income from taking over these hosues from those who stretched, lied, or were fooled into bad decisions and will eventually cough up the homes anyway(thus delaying the problem and delaying the solution).

[Craig Sweet]

jeff...

well jeff, if you want your taxes to pay a bank CEO a few million a year...after running his bank into the ground....let your congressperson know.  I don't...so if this "competent" CEO does not want to "stick around"....let him go and get a job with another bank....if he can.

Trickle down never has worked Jeff...and these guys are not creating anything with their wealth....they aren't during a piece of wood or a chunk of steel into something with added value....

And Jeff...don't you think the real problem is not the family that refinanced and bought a jet ski (how is that different than the CEO spending his bonus on a membership at Sand Hill?),  but those who bundled these loans and traded them over and over again to the point where it all collapsed?  I mean really Jeff...people have refinanced...borrowed against their equity....for years to take vacations, pay for their kids education, buy a new car, fix up their home...and the world did not end....why now?

Most homeowners have done nothing wrong....they just find themselves out of work, or living in a home that has lost 40% of its value...through no fault of their own...Where is the angry rant against those that caused this collapse in the first place?

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