The “Long” 4th at Fox Chapel

[Dean DiBerardino]

I was recently snooping around the “Penn Pilot” website and have some thoughts/questions after viewing an image of Fox Chapel Golf Club from 1938. 

With many of the prototype holes being well represented at FCGC, I have wondered why there seemed to be no “Road” hole in the mix. (I know that many of the MacRaynor courses do not have all of the prototype holes represented.)  The 4th at FCGC is named “Long” and measures 485 yards.  The yardage of this hole could not have ever been much longer because of Squaw Run Rd. E there to keep from doing so.  While I’m sure that this hole was a par 5 at its inception, it couldn’t have been the longest on the course.  The 18th hole (currently named Glade Run) had a tee near the 17th green in 1938.  Using this spot on a current Google Earth image, the hole would have measured around 520 yards.

The 1938 image is below.


Also, a current image of the same area of the golf course from Google Earth is below.



Based on the past and current images, I have a few thoughts and questions about what I am looking at….

- It seems that the design of the 4th green complex in 1938 resembled a mirrored “Road” hole similar to the 4th at Yale.

- Was the 4th at Fox Chapel originally designed as a “Road” hole or am I trying to read too much in to these images?

- If the 4th was originally a “Road”, is there any knowledge or documentation of the reasons for the changes?

- With the recent restorative changes to FCGC, is/was there a thought or plan of migrating back to this earlier (original?) design for the 4th hole?  The 1938 fairway bunker configuration of the 4th looks pretty cool as well!

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

[JNC Lyon]

That looks like a Road Hole to me.  It's hard to believe that green would have changed so much over the years?  Was it completely rebuilt at one point?

[ed_getka]

Dean,
   I have never been to Fox Chapel, but I don't think #4 was a road hole IMO. The green has a guarding bunker that may have been central, but the green isn't very shallow to the line of play all the way across since it wraps around the bunker on the left. Also there isn't an angle off the tee for hitting the fairway from what I can see. It is just straightaway off the tee. I am certainly no authority on Road holes, but I don't think it was one.

[Chris Ord]

it's tough to judge a hole based on topographical photos, but the earlier 1938 hole (whether it's a road hole or not) looks a heck of a lot more fun to play.

[TEPaul]

Dean:

This is an interesting subject you bring up about the old 4th green. I know Fox Chapel very well and a number of the people who run the club and were part of the restoration that was done there in the last ten years.

I did know that not all the bunkers on all the holes were restored to what they once were and I've always gotten the feeling the club sort of came to regret that essentially thinking that if they had it all to do over again they would've wanted things done a bit more to the original aerials or whatever. I sort of got the feeling from them that they felt later they didn't know enough about what to ask be done in the beginning.

I was always aware that the bunker arrangement on #4 was done very differently in their restoration project but I never really saw how different that green was. Good find on your part.

There are some other holes that have been considered for a more pure original bunker treatment like the fairly controversial "Lion's Mouth" bunker on the 9th hole and I always wished (and encouraged them) to put the front side bunkers back on the biarritz #17 hole.

How about that old carry bunker on the redan that is no longer there?

[Dean DiBerardino]

There are some other holes that have been considered for a more pure original bunker treatment like the fairly controversial "Lion's Mouth" bunker on the 9th hole and I always wished (and encouraged them) to put the front side bunkers back on the biarritz #17 hole.

How about that old carry bunker on the redan that is no longer there?

TEPaul:

I did notice the carry bunker on #6 and found the Penn Pilot website from an old thread from about the FC Biarritz with an image of the hole in 1938.  Below is the aerial of the entire golf course.  If I am seeing it correctly, the "Lion's Mouth" bunker is barely visible with a tongue of green wrapping around the bunker at about 4:00 o'clock of the green.

[George_Bahto]

The original 4th hole is Certainly Road hole bunkering

[astavrides]

Great pics!  I also note some of Pittsburgh Field Club in the foreground of the second aerial.  It would be cool to see more of that one too from that era if you have it.  Also, I'd like to see more of Shady Side Academy, directly above the Field Club if you have it.  That campus has changed much more that the golf courses. but the six buildings around the quadrangle are still there.

[Dean DiBerardino]

Thanks for the input guys.  Regarding the possible strategy from tee to green on #4 in 1938, let me throw out the following and get your thoughts.  First, observe the two images below.

From the 4th tee.  Notice the right to left movement of the fairway.



From near the 17th green looking over (through the ugly power lines) towards #4 and #2.  Again, notice the amount of right to left slope on #4 as well as the left to right slope on #2.


Also, there is a small creek in between #4 and #5.

Now if you consider that the golf course was built with the expectation of more of a ground game and “firm and fast” conditions, one would have to consider the amount of “ground hook” that could occur on this tee shot.

Since the best way to approach this green would have been from the left side of the fairway, it may have been necessary to have one’s drive land up the right side of the fairway (near the bunkers and rough) to have the ball end up in the center to left side of the fairway.  A drive too far right (or mishit second shot) would either end up in one of the fairway bunkers or the right rough.  Aside from a bad lie, a ball hung up on the right side of this hole would have resulted in an unfriendly angle into the green over the “Road” bunker and with some very deep looking bunkers lurking left and long as well.  A drive landing in the left side of the fairway could have ended up with a very uneven lie or one that rolled into the creek on the left.  Again, this is assuming “firm and fast” combined with the right to left slope of the fairway.

So maybe there was some strategy here.  Maybe tee shot was meant to flirt with danger on the right side to gain a better angle of play for the next shot.

Again, just speculating……

[Dean DiBerardino]

Great pics!  I also note some of Pittsburgh Field Club in the foreground of the second aerial.  It would be cool to see more of that one too from that era if you have it.  Also, I'd like to see more of Shady Side Academy, directly above the Field Club if you have it.  That campus has changed much more that the golf courses. but the six buildings around the quadrangle are still there.

As requested.....

[George Pazin]

I mean this in no way as a slight to the photos, but it is amazing to me how much less dramatic the terrain looks on here than in person.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Dean's pictures best capture why this cannot be a Road Hole in spite of the appearance from the aerial.   The green has a fairly significant right to left slope to compliment the right to left fairway slope.  This is a very strong hole among a stretch of great holes.

[gookin]

the original #4 green was changed following a round by Bobby Jones. Following a round at Fox Chapel during one of his many visits to Oakmont. Jones was asked his opinion of the course. His reply was that it was a great course except for the # 4 green. The original green sloped severely to the left. His approach to the green ran across the green and out of bounds. Based upon his comments the green was changed to how it is today. The original hole played 440. It was lengthened in the 60's. The actual distance is longer than #2 which plays as a par 5. In TEP logic they are two 4.5s.

[astavrides]

Sorry for the semi-thread jack, but thanks for the Field Club and Shady Side Academy pics.  The Field Club doesn't look to have changed much, although I understand many, many people worked on it since and Im sure there are green complex changes etc.    The biggest change is that the holes are rather tree lined now, and were pretty tree free back then.  And as discussed in a thread a few weeks back, I can see that the 18th was an uphill par 4 then, and now it is an elevator ride to a par 3.  Shady Side has changed radically, but that is a topic for a different board. 

[Dean DiBerardino]

the original #4 green was changed following a round by Bobby Jones. Following a round at Fox Chapel during one of his many visits to Oakmont. Jones was asked his opinion of the course. His reply was that it was a great course except for the # 4 green. The original green sloped severely to the left. His approach to the green ran across the green and out of bounds. Based upon his comments the green was changed to how it is today. The original hole played 440. It was lengthened in the 60's. The actual distance is longer than #2 which plays as a par 5. In TEP logic they are two 4.5s.

Thanks fo sharing that David.  That's a great story.  Did the membership at Fox Chapel ever consider recreating a more "user freiendly" version of the original green and surrounds?

[gookin]

We have done a very complete study of our original design and the subsequent changes over the years. For the past 15 years have been steadily restoring many of our lost features.  We still have a way to go.  However, the restoration on the #4 green complex is very far down the list. I would expect the fairway bunker patterns of #4 would be restored before the green complex. However, bringing back the lion's mouth and the many fairway cross bunkers hold far higher priorities. For the past three years our primary focus has been on improving turf quality and course conditioning. Resources have been focused on building a quality maintenance staff, updating equipment, sub-surface green drainage, drill and fill, enhanced aerification, etc. (the list goes on). This years project will involve a complete redo of our irrigation system. Our progress has been exceptional. As you could imagine there is not much time left for restoration work. FCGC maintains a commitment to preserving and restoring the arcitectural integrity of our Raynor classic, but we are not in a big rush. We are more commited to making what we have as good as it can be before investing in additional changes.

[John Mayhugh]

We have done a very complete study of our original design and the subsequent changes over the years. For the past 15 years have been steadily restoring many of our lost features.  We still have a way to go.  However, the restoration on the #4 green complex is very far down the list. I would expect the fairway bunker patterns of #4 would be restored before the green complex. However, bringing back the lion's mouth and the many fairway cross bunkers hold far higher priorities. For the past three years our primary focus has been on improving turf quality and course conditioning. Resources have been focused on building a quality maintenance staff, updating equipment, sub-surface green drainage, drill and fill, enhanced aerification, etc. (the list goes on). This years project will involve a complete redo of our irrigation system. Our progress has been exceptional. As you could imagine there is not much time left for restoration work. FCGC maintains a commitment to preserving and restoring the arcitectural integrity of our Raynor classic, but we are not in a big rush. We are more commited to making what we have as good as it can be before investing in additional changes.

Thanks for the comments.  Have you guys done much in the way of tree removal? 

I've enjoyed reading this discussion.  Fox Chapel looks like one more wonderful reason to visit Pittsburgh.

[Dean DiBerardino]

We have done a very complete study of our original design and the subsequent changes over the years. For the past 15 years have been steadily restoring many of our lost features.  We still have a way to go.  However, the restoration on the #4 green complex is very far down the list. I would expect the fairway bunker patterns of #4 would be restored before the green complex. However, bringing back the lion's mouth and the many fairway cross bunkers hold far higher priorities. For the past three years our primary focus has been on improving turf quality and course conditioning. Resources have been focused on building a quality maintenance staff, updating equipment, sub-surface green drainage, drill and fill, enhanced aerification, etc. (the list goes on). This years project will involve a complete redo of our irrigation system. Our progress has been exceptional. As you could imagine there is not much time left for restoration work. FCGC maintains a commitment to preserving and restoring the arcitectural integrity of our Raynor classic, but we are not in a big rush. We are more commited to making what we have as good as it can be before investing in additional changes.

David:

Thank you for sharing the info about Fox Chapel.  You have answered my questions and then some!  Good luck with all the future endeavors there.  I am very envious of the role you hold with the restoration/renovation work at FCGC.  I'm sure that many of the posters here feel the same way!  Thanks again.

[gookin]

Most of our tree removal work was done in 2003 as a result of a micro-burst that took over 350 trees. This is real evidence that God is a Raynor fan. We have added to that another 150 over the years. During the 70's and 80's we planted over 750 trees. Most were planted in the wrong places. Now, we  have a well developed tree improvement plan which includes targeted removal where trees give us agronomic problems or interfere with the cooridors of play, aggressive pruning, and new planting focused on our perimeters to enhance our "walk in the park".  Our Borough has a very strict ordinance that requires approval for each individual tree removal. We have been able to work cooperatively with them to greatly improve our tree situation.

[David Lott]

Love the Shady Side picture, which also shows the old Shady Side golf course. There were still a few holes of the SSA course in play when I was a kid in the 1950's though the conditioning was in major decline. 1938 is the year that my father graduated from Shady Side. I figure he's down there somewhere in that photo.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Here is a view of the 4th green from the 2nd tee

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

In November, I posted a thread Shoreacres vs. Fox Chapel.  Obvoiusly, there was a bias in my post--Fox Chapel would win a hole to hole competition 14 to 4.  I am pretty close to having played every Raynor course and find Fox Chapel to be in my top 5. 

[astavrides]

Love the Shady Side picture, which also shows the old Shady Side golf course. There were still a few holes of the SSA course in play when I was a kid in the 1950's though the conditioning was in major decline. 1938 is the year that my father graduated from Shady Side. I figure he's down there somewhere in that photo.

yeah, interesting.  I had never heard there was a course there.  It's hard to figure out the routing from that aerial.  Looks like a par 3 course in places, but there are several longer holes.  Do you know anything else about it?