Why do they want us in the "middle"?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

"What was your question about Flynn and Indian Creek?"

Well, exactly, what was the question indeed!! It was what do you suppose they wouldn't allow today with the way Flynn built Indian Creek.

You see, you just launch off in all these hypothetical problems about what Flynn would have faced in today's world but you have no idea how he even built the golf course, do you? So how do you really know if he would have had any problems if you have no idea how he even built the course?

I might not but I'm quite sure you might say that's jumping the gun before you know the FACTS!! Remember those things, Pat? There apparently very important to some people, like you, for instance!

[Wil Schneider]

Patrick
Interesting speculation. I'll file that under a little knowledge is dangerous. With emphasis on the little.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Those aren't hypothetical problems as you allege.

They are real world problems that must be dealt with today.

I know the facts because I was unfortunate enough to experience them first hand in south Florida.

What is the basis for your position with respect to golf course construction in south Florida ?

99 % of those agencies didn't even exist when Flynn was designing and building golf courses.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Let me put it this way! What's the basis of your position on golf course construction in South Florida regarding Indian Creek, not mine? Your the one who listed it, not me!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will Schreiner,

Since I answered your questions, could you answer mine.

Do you think that today's permiting process would offer no impediment to Flynn designing and building his courses ?

Do you think they would exist in their identical form if built today ?

What's speculative about the information ?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Angles are the much of the beauty of design and playing the game. Wonderful point Mark, for you are right. Too many course have only how far as an option. I love a course that leaves the essence of strategy in the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

As you know, Indian Creek is on an island in Biscayne Bay.

The northern holes are directly on the water, but it's not just any water, it is the Biscayne Bay Aquatic Preserve.

There is no offset or buffer from the golf course to the water, and as such I doubt those holes could be built today.

If Indian Creek Island was in its raw, natural form today, the ability to overcome the permiting process required to build a golf course might prove to be an impossible task, and my view is that it is unlikely that a golf course could be built there today.

In addition to calling the bordering water the Biscayne Bay Aquatic Preserve, we'd be calling the island the Indian Creek Wildlife Preserve.

Flynn may have been a master router and a great designer,
but there is no way he could overcome some of the environmental restricitions placed on property and designers/developers today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will Schreiner,

Could you answer the questions I posed ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Who knows the way these environmental things really work and why but Indian Creek is on a man-made island as you know. Aquatic preserve or whatever I can't see Miami building a man-made island then or now and calling the thing a preserve that nothing could be built on. That's just not how South Florida works to me.

Sure they'd probably hassle Flynn and the course if he was building today but I'm sure he would get it done. Realistically I think even those that make the decisions down there could come to the conclusion that a golf course would definitely be more environmentally friendly than 500 wealthy houses flushing about 5000 toilets a day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

On the surface you would think so, and then you see Friar's Head, zoned for 700 homes, with environmentalists making the argument that they don't want a beautiful golf course and would prefer the 700 homes, with all the baggage they bring to the town/area.

It makes no sense to me, but these are the arguments you get today.

There is a landfill (garbage dump) in Jersey City I believe, that a developer wanted to build a golf course on top of.  
Can you believe the environmentalists opposed the project.
Go figure that one out.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You're only making one colossal mistake about Friar's Head! The environmentalists that are hassling Friar's Head definitely DO NOT want 700 houses in place of Friar's Head!

They would prefer to bulldoze the golf course back into the Grandiflorio Sand Hills or some similar name they've invented for that dune area.

What they don't seem to understand very well is if they ever succeeded in bulldozing Friar's Head G.C. about 700 houses is what they would probably ulitmately get--the very last thing they want.

That group is apparently so out of whack with reality that other environmental groups are starting to call them nuts!!

So ultimately they really aren't so much a true environmental obstacle---they're more just a colossal temporary pain in the ass!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The image of an environmentalist as a concerned, prudent member of society went out the window when GreenPeace started destroying property and jeopardizing lives.

I'm not so sure the movement hasn't drifted to the extremists.

I think the States should adopt prudent uniform standards and eliminate this nightmare of a process.

Question:

What should the consequence be if a member of an environmentalist group, with their consent and participation, covertly placed an endagered species onto a property, causing the project on that property to be terminated, resulting in the loss of money already spent by the developer, as well as the money the developer would have made if the project had been completed, as well as the loss of the use of the land ?

Should the individuals face criminal and civil prosecution ?
Should the environmental organization face criminal and civil prosecution ?
Should the government apply RICO statutes ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Well, you know more about the environmental scene and golf courses in South Florida than I do, that's for sure.

What do I think should happen to an environmentalist who transports an endangered species onto a property to drive a golf project down the tubes?

Well now--have you ever heard of the Mann Act? Basically for dirty old men who transport little underage girls accross state lines with illicit thoughts in their dirty old heads!

Basically the law provides that potentially they can fry, I think! That's what I would do to extreme environmentalists who transport a little endangered specie across property lines to places where it doesn't ordinarily belong and where it might feel extremely forlorn and lonely--maybe even helpless!

As for compensating developers and such--I guess so. There's a law in this country that works most often in South Florida for the DEA Agency where the agents can keep anything at all that belongs to those drug runners. That's what I'd do to the extreme environmental outfit that had anything to do with that evil man who transported that poor little thing across the property line onto a golf project where it didn't ordinarily belong.

I'd just gut that agency for all it was worth and earmark all the proceeds specifically for a really good redan and maybe a Biarritz green on a really long into the wind par 4!

That would really serve those sumsabitchs right!

[archie s]

Figured I'd give a half educated, know some of the South Florida rules vis a vis the regulators. Not only could Flynn not have built one of my favorite courses today,they couldn't build the island!!!!!

[Dave_Miller]

Pat Mucci has hit the nail on the head again.  In 1921 when Charles River CC was built in Newton Centre, Ma. the banks of the Charles River were dynamited for some of the space. Boston Newpaper articles of the era show pictures and have stories about the building of the course with a headline Dynamiting the Charles.
Try doing that today with the Federal, State and local regulations in place not to mention the environmental groups ranging from the true thoughtful and caring groups to the extreme evironmental nazis who would destroy to stop the development.  
There is no easy answer as usual but I think Donald Ross would have had a few more problems than today and maybe the course so many of us love would not have existed.
Cheers
Dave Miller

[TEPaul]

Ahh, nonsense any of those courses could be built today and dynamite could be used too. Just get Tommy Naccarato on the project--he'll use dynamite without even asking for permission or a permit! He'd just tell them he bought this little cherry bomb in Georgia and he has no idea how all this mess could've happened! What're they going to do, ask him to put the river bank back together again?

[Wil S]

Interesting speculation on Indian Creek.....aren't the Links of Biscayne and Fisher Island on the water in South Florida? Which holes at Boca Raton, Atlantic City, Seaview and Shinne would have been impossible to build due to environmental regulations?

I don't think Flynn and men of his ilk would have had much problem.....they were limited by technology and they were limited by their sensibility. They didn't need goverment oversight, they had their own limitations.

I thought dynamite was replaced years ago by other means....you learn something every day. Do you think ol' Donald would still revert to TNT if he were building Charles River today? I think I saw an old episode of This Old House where they blowing up bedrock somewhere near Beantown....maybe you're right. If its good enough for Bob Villa its sure as hell good enough for Donald Ross.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will Schreiner,

The second paragraph of your response confirms your naivete and that you know less than the "little" that I know.

[A_Clay_Man]

I am surprised noone has stated how boring being down the middle is, all the time.

and,

Long and down the middle can be highly over rated!

[Patrick_Mucci]

AClayman,

I never met a fairway I didn't like  

Will Schreiner,

Today means today, not thirty (30) years ago, when environmental law was in its infancy.