How many courses have an architect on retainer?

[Tommy Williamsen]

It seems to me that a golf course would be well served by retaining the services of an architect and having him/her visit the course once a year. 

Does it happen very often or at all?

[Sean_A]

Tommy

I don't know how many clubs keep an archie on tap, but one of mine does and we also use a regular agronomist.  No prizes for guessing which club it is!

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

It seems to me that a golf course would be well served by retaining the services of an architect and having him/her visit the course once a year. 

Does it happen very often or at all?

Tommy,

Just to get my cynical post in for the day, but isn't this what ANGC has basically done with Fazio at Augusta for the past how many years?

I suspect overall this isn't a good thing because of the tinkering effect one would feel in justifying the retainer and at least annual vists. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tommy,

Just to get my cynical post in for the day, but isn't this what ANGC has basically done with Fazio at Augusta for the past how many years?

I suspect overall this isn't a good thing because of the tinkering effect one would feel in justifying the retainer and at least annual vists. 

What would happen if a club made changes without an architect?
How many courses have you seen built without an architect?
Are you saying architects aren't objective?
Why not pick one who is very good and looking in the clients best interest?
There are plenty - or at least used to be....
Cheers

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - likewise GCA and agronomist as well as consultant greenkeeper.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Long Cove USED to have Bobby Weed on retainer for years-not sure if they still do now or not. He helped with grassing lines, native area selections, getting tree removals approved. Mr. Weed was LCC first Superintendent and was also on Mr. Dyes staff during construction.
  Arctitects are very pround of their work, and I think, would like to be informed when ANY of there work is changed. When I was at LCC, we extended the 5th tee about 10 years deeper. Mr Dye came in sometime later, saw the change and said "If you do that kind of stuff without asking me again, I'm going to take my name off this place!" He's protective of his baby, rightfully so! 

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Mike_Young]

Long Cove USED to have Bobby Weed on retainer for years-not sure if they still do now or not. He helped with grassing lines, native area selections, getting tree removals approved. Mr. Weed was LCC first Superintendent and was also on Mr. Dyes staff during construction.
  Arctitects are very pround of their work, and I think, would like to be informed when ANY of there work is changed. When I was at LCC, we extended the 5th tee about 10 years deeper. Mr Dye came in sometime later, saw the change and said "If you do that kind of stuff without asking me again, I'm going to take my name off this place!" He's protective of his baby, rightfully so! 

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,
The problem for most of is is......the client could care less f we took our name off.....

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tony,

I recall you telling me that Long Cove had Bobby Weed on retainer. That's a bit strange, considering he's not the architect of record. And, the architect of record is still available for consultation.

[Peter Wagner]

My home club does not have an archie on retainer but we do have an agronomist (Paul Latshaw) on retainer and he visits us about 8 times a year.

[TEPaul]

I don't know how many courses keep an architect on retainer but I do know a number of that do, including my own club.

[Peter Ferlicca]

I know that my uncle who is the super at Woodland Country Club, which is a newly redesigned Pete Dye course in Carmel, IN.  Whenever Pete is at his house at Crooked Stick, he is stopping either at Woodland or Crooked Stick to see if any changes would be for the better,  he is always tinkering with Woodland CC from what I hear from my uncle.  I don't know if you could consider Pete Dye a retainer for those two courses, but both of those courses he has spent an enormous amount of time on.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not "on retainer" anywhere personally, since I don't want any more obligations to travel than I already have.  But we still have 20+ clubs for whom we are active consultants, and I will make visits when stuff comes up from their end.

It isn't really necessary to be making visits EVERY year ... if the club is listening to what you're saying.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Whether or not a club has an architect on retainer, it makes sense to me that a club should have the architect that completed the most recent master plan serve as "the architect of record". In other words, no arbitrary changes made by the greens chairman de jour without consultation of the architect that put together the most recent approved plan.

[mike_beene]

Greg,I think you hit on the best reason.Kind of what Tom D is referring to:if any changes have to go through the architect,the problem of the current powers making a few changes is controlled.We had things like a few greens that didn't fit in from changes over the years.after that got fixed, the only changes that can be made are by the architect.Of course, like anything political that can change.But it is a major safeguard.

[David Stamm]

Bel Air has Fazio, and it's exactly the reason the place looks like a Steve Wynn project.....

[Niall C]

Tommy,

Excellent question and I'm very interested to see the answers.

I think too many courses here in the UK make significant changes to their layouts without any proper professional input. Perhaps this is because they are mainly members courses run on a part-time basis by committees who don't know any better than to let the greenkeeper execute changes that they themselves have come up with.

I've only made a couple of golfing trips to the US but if this site is any guide there seems to be more awareness of the role of the golf course architect in the US.

Sean/Mark,

I note your comments on your own courses. Are they Open Qualifiers by any chance, as I believe that the R&A pay for agronomists and architects for Qualifier courses.

Niall

[SL_Solow]

When we renovated Briarwood  in 2001 after a major storm we attempted to recapture much of the Colt & Allison features and feel of the course.  Upon completion, we retained the architect, Mark Mungeam, to consult with our Greens committee.  The purpose was to make certain that we did not embark on any in house activities which would undermine the overall plan and to assure that any modifications made were done with professional advice.  Thus far the arrangement has worked quite well.  It will be interesting to see what might happen if we get a strong willed chairman with different ideas.  So far those of us who shepherded the project remain active and limit the liklihood of drastic change.  Also our membership remains happy with the course.

[corey miller]

It would seem to me that it would be advisable to actually complete all elements of the master plan before worrying about getting an architect on retainer. 

I suspect many of the guys on retainer that would be well regarded by this site spend too much time talking green committee folks out of implementing ill advised "changes". 

[Tommy Williamsen]

My club does not have an architecht on retainer but it is new enough that the architect makes a yearly site visit.  It was part of the contract.  It has worked out very well for us.  He has made a few changes for the better.  Most are not substantive  but some fairways have been rehaped and some bunkers have been tinkered with.
My other club calls in an architect every few years to look at the the course and make some recommendations.  It seems to me that a site visit every few years by an architect might stave off a green committee running wild.

They also have an eye for detail that most of us do not.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have been thinking about Fazio's role at Augusta.  Does he come up with the ideas or does he implement and tweak ideas all ready in place?

I can't for the life of me see any downside to retaining an architect ot lend an objective professional eye to a course.

[David Stamm]

I have been thinking about Fazio's role at Augusta.  Does he come up with the ideas or does he implement and tweak ideas all ready in place?

I can't for the life of me see any downside to retaining an architect ot lend an objective professional eye to a course.

The key word is objective. And the key is if said architect is tending to his work, or, if the architect is sympathetic towards to the original design and that architects tendencies. In ANGC's case, it really doesn't matter because the course has been tweaked by so many other architects that the original design intent was lost long ago.

[Sean_A]

Tommy,

Excellent question and I'm very interested to see the answers.

I think too many courses here in the UK make significant changes to their layouts without any proper professional input. Perhaps this is because they are mainly members courses run on a part-time basis by committees who don't know any better than to let the greenkeeper execute changes that they themselves have come up with.

I've only made a couple of golfing trips to the US but if this site is any guide there seems to be more awareness of the role of the golf course architect in the US.

Sean/Mark,

I note your comments on your own courses. Are they Open Qualifiers by any chance, as I believe that the R&A pay for agronomists and architects for Qualifier courses.

Niall

Niall
Yes, my club is used for Open qualifying, but I had no idea the R&A paid for the archie and agronomist.  Are you sure it isn't just for final Open qualifying?  Even then, sometimes several courses are used and that could get expensive.  As my club isn't near any Open venue it isn't used for final Open qualifying. 

To me, the best things about retaining an archie are 1) keeps committees in check with an objective view and 2) makes it easier to develop and maintain long term plans rather than choppy committee plans every new election.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean,

Absolutely spot on with your comments. It constantly amazes me how many fine old courses are butchered at the whim of the new captain/green convener. Yes, I know these guys give there time freely etc but if these guys ran there business's in the same fashion, ie. ignoring specialist advice, they probably wouldn't even be able to afford to pay there green fees. Anyway, thats my rant for the day.

On your question of whether the R&A pick up the tab for agronomist/architect, I have to confess that I'm not absolutely certain. I am fairly sure that the R&A inspect the courses and then make recommendations to the club. Where changes are then agreed with the club, then I think I'm safe in saying that the R&A pick up the tab.

I think the whole involvement with the R&A naturally encourages the club to use the services of an agronomist/architect where they might not have before. The above doesn't conclusively answer your question but I'll try and find out for sure and get back to you.

Niall

[Doug Wright]

Tommy,

We have a consulting architect who's redone a couple of holes over the past 15 years or so and offered other advice from time to time. I don't know if he's "on retainer" or just gets paid on a project basis.