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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2009, 04:26:02 PM »
My wife says the only times I'm annoying are when I'm asleep or awake.....

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2009, 05:11:44 PM »

Kalen

I like the size of that hole, how many carts can it accommodate at a time?

Or is it the result of Captain Kirk’s phase blast ?

Or is this the entrance to the new Golden Age, well if you can’t build a decent course these days due to the credit crunch why not sink a gold mine? 

Kalen its not golf as we know it!

Melvyn


Melvyn Morrow

Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2009, 05:35:24 PM »

Looking at the photo the caption should read as follows
Standing golfer speaking to his squatting friend

Big Bill (standing golfer) asks 

Even you Kalen can’t miss from that distance

Kalen (squatting) replied   

I can't afford to miss because that bugger Melvyn will never let me forget it.

Standing Golfer Big Bill replies

I thought this was meant to speed up the round?

Kalen replies

This is American Golf – it take what it takes – it’s our way of playing golf – you got a problem with that Big Bill

Big Bill replies

No just wish I brought the beer cart if I knew you were going to play your NORMAL Game!!!!!! ;)

Melvyn finishes by saying

Kalen does it his way and what a fine mess he has made. It’s true you can take a horse to water but you can’t educate him to drink. ;D ;D ;D


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2009, 05:46:16 PM »

Looking at the photo the caption should read as follows
Standing golfer speaking to his squatting friend

Big Bill (standing golfer) asks 

Even you Kalen can’t miss from that distance

Kalen (squatting) replied   

I can't afford to miss because that bugger Melvyn will never let me forget it.

Standing Golfer Big Bill replies

I thought this was meant to speed up the round?

Kalen replies

This is American Golf – it take what it takes – it’s our way of playing golf – you got a problem with that Big Bill

Big Bill replies

No just wish I brought the beer cart if I knew you were going to play your NORMAL Game!!!!!! ;)

Melvyn finishes by saying

Kalen does it his way and what a fine mess he has made. It’s true you can take a horse to water but you can’t educate him to drink. ;D ;D ;D


Melyvn,

Its cause you still have a good sense of humor about this whole thing that I haven't sicked my dogs on you to go over there and break your legs and straighten you out.

That was funny!!   :D

But hey, I'm not the issue, I can easily play fast and ready golf...its that Peter P guy causing all the problems.  Lets blame it on him!!  ;D

Gary_Mahanay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2009, 06:03:55 PM »
Melvyn,

Your banter with Kalen is entertaining but what is the story on the diameter of the hole?  Does it go back before Old Tom?  I thought that it was Old Tom that started using the pipe to reinforce the hole?  Has the diameter always been 4.25 inches even before Old Tom's time?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2009, 06:22:35 PM »

Gary

As per my IM Anthony, I have a file with some info, but I will have to look for it. What I understand is that it was Old Tom who started it off but not I believe at TOC, it was one of the other Fife courses he designed, not certain but Elie or Crail where it was first used to stop the sandy soil falling back into the hole. I will try and find the info I have and hopefully update you.

Kalen

That's what so wonderful about you guys across the pond and it never seems to change, it’s that old adage of ‘shoot first then ask questions later’ no matter how many times it still gets you into trouble you but you can not help yourselves.

Not surprised you have holes that size on your courses, you need them sometimes to crawl into. Set your dogs onto me well I can now understand the phrase ‘friendly fire’, so I must remember to watch my back – dogs indeed, such a friendly gesture. 8)

Melvyn

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2009, 09:12:38 PM »
   The hole has been 4 1/4" in diameter since the R&A deemed it in 1891. There is no definitive reason for that decision, but Chapman notes that is the exact size of the first cup cutting machine, used at Musselbrough in 1829 and still in existence. Prior to 1891 each course cut cut it's hole at any diameter. Cup liners are not mentioned until about 1905.
   Until I reviewed Chapman I though maybe 4 1/4" was a common diameter of some tinned goods, or claret bottle and dreamt you could go around museums of Fife looking for that elusive diamater.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2009, 09:29:18 PM »
Yesterday I was reviewing some golf articles from the 1920s and 1930s and came across a column called Fore! And Maybe More written in April, 1932. The author wanted to know what Walker Cupper Don Moe thought of Gene Sarazen's idea of enlarging the cup diameter to eight inches. Since Don was a student in Eugene, he contacted the campus daily editor, Dick Neuberger (who happened to become a US Senator). This is part of the interview:

"The reason for my opposition to the radical suggestion of Gene Sarazen is one tht involves some degree of technicality. Fundamentally the game of golf is one that demands unusual skill (except in Kalen's case ;)) and co-ordination in anyone who hopes to become a good player. If the cups were enlarged to eight inches, putting would become a lost art, rather an unnecessary one. The game would eventually lose much of its appeal as a result."
Moe's views on the subject are shared by Bobby Jones, who said not long ago that the larger cups might make for an interesting game, but it wouldn't be golf. Other world-celebrated linksmen, notably those three veterans of the divot-cutting sport Sandy Herd, Harry Vardon and James Braid, agree with the peerless Georgian that the proposed change is not calculated to help the game.
Sarazen maintains that when a dub and an expert play a game of golf together it works out about this way: the duffer approaches within 25 feet or so of the pin, while the expert will usually drop his ball within en feet. Both will take two putts to get down, under the present conditions. But if the cup is enlarged to eight inches the expert will almost invariably sink the ball while the average player, from further away, will still require two strokes. Well known pros who approve the Sarazen idean are Leo Diegel and Al Espinosa.
                                                      -30-

So the way I read it Sarazen was unhappy with the quality of the green surface.


RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2009, 10:15:58 PM »
Lower scores.

 ;D

I didn't realize this is what THE GAME of golf was all about.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim Colton

Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2009, 10:25:42 PM »
I think the USGA might go the other way and shrink the hole slightly in the US Open...you know, to protect par :)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Enlarge the hole - what would be the consequences?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2009, 10:44:20 PM »
If for no other reason: there would be trouble interpreting the rules. Given the present dimensions of ball and cup, there is no way a golf ball can fall in the hole without touching the stick.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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