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Ran Morrissett

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Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« on: January 26, 2009, 03:12:23 PM »
...under Architecture Timeline and Courses by Country.

Given that Flynn's name appears on less than 55 original designs, he spent more time per course than some of the more prolific Golden Age designers like Ross, Tillinghast, etc. Furthermore, of all his original designs, he spent more time at Lancaster than any other, which I contend is the underlying reason why Lancaster has always received more attention than any of his other Pennsylvania courses.

From 1919 until his death in 1945, Flynn was at Lancaster on a nearly annual basis. Think about the ramifications that had: As Flynn evolved as an architect, so too did the holes and course. As changes occurred in agronomy and technology, Flynn kept Lancaster up to date, helping to see it from the age of hickory into the age of steel. And unlike Pete Dye's work at Crooked Stick where you can tell which decade Dye did what, Flynn's work spanning several decades at Lancaster is seamless.

As well as any architect ever, Flynn never tried to muscle his own stamp onto a site but rather used the land to create a series of interesting holes that are unique to that property. Lancaster's evolution reflects that, though how the final product emerged is complex. Wayne Morrison, who has devoted more time  :o to the study of Flynn than anyone, points out that at Lancaster, 'Routing progressions changed, hole designs changed (some as many as seven times), holes were abandoned and others incorporated on different parts of Lancaster's vast property. The only constant was the close relationship between the club, led by Roy Eshelman, and Flynn, their consulting architect for twenty-six years. Lancaster's own success led to some issues as the increase in local property development also helped increase the frequency of flooding. This dictated some necessary changes to the course.  Fortunately, Flynn was always there and the changes, even the few not planned by Flynn, provided significant improvements to the course.'

With so much of Flynn in the course, Lancaster is a delight to study. Of course, time has a way of doing cruel things to golf courses. When Forse Design was called in in 2005, Flynn had been dead for sixty years. Just as they always do, and have done with spectacular success at two other Flynn gems Indian Creek and Philadelphia Country Club, Ron Forse and Jim Nagle submersed themselves into understanding and re-establishing the nuances of this particular design. Their success is detailed throughout this course profile.

As with any course, the quality and health of the turf is crucial but that is especially true when the land plays such a crucial role in how the holes are meant to be played. In that regard, Lancaster got a huge boost forward when Green Keeper Todd Bidlespacher arrived at LCC from Kirtland Country Club in 2004. To address poor drainage issues, a shallow root system, and mediocre turf coverage, Todd set out on a five year turnaround plan. The success that he has had is evident above the surface and below as well where he has largely reduced the layer of thatch that was choking off the root system. Indeed, Ben Crenshaw remarked on how well the course played when he toured it in the fall of 2008.

Combined with the work by Forse Design, Bidlespacher has helped returned Lancaster to preeminence. Given all the time that Flynn spent here, he would cast the most critical eye over it so it is no small compliment to say that Flynn would be very pleased if he could see today's course.

Of course, members of other Flynn courses (who time has shown aren't shy about expressing their opinions on GolfClubAtlas.com 8) ) will have their own take on things! That's what makes throwing open a Flynn profile to discussion here such risky business but if ever a course can stand up under scrutiny, it's Lancaster Country Club. 

Cheers,

PCCraig

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 03:24:22 PM »
Ran-

Great course review.  :)

I can't get over how much the course looks like Glen View Club in Golf, IL. Perhaps the Flynn greens and common use of a river/stream in the routing are where I see similarities.

Thanks again!
H.P.S.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 06:04:43 PM »
Well I was not expecting to see such a Parkland style course. I have not been out to Lancaster (the area) for years, but my expectation was for LCC to be a pastoral/farm setting rather than suburban parkland. My view is all from the pictures as I have not been to LCC.

I would be interested to see if Joe or Mike C have any early aerials of Lancaster CC.

Isn't this bunker on the right hidden by trees a no no?



That said, the course looks to have many Merion elements with the tiny streams fronting greens and also used as diagonal carries.

Kyle Harris

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:15:04 PM »
Mike,

That bunker is on a different hole - 15, to be precise.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 06:17:30 PM »
Mike:

  Lancaster is like a lot of places in Eastern PA.  Large suburban population, surrounding a small city once you get 10-15 miles from the center of the city you are in the sprawling countryside most people imagine.  When the club moved to its present location in 1913 it was countryside but only about 2 miles from the city.  

The bunker you refer to in your post is actually a bunker adjacent to 15 green.  It is not in play on the hole depicted in the photograph unless you hit a really awful shot. If you look carefully, you can see 15 green behind the tree (which is not in play on 15).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 06:43:42 PM by Rory Connaughton »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 07:29:02 PM »
Wow - what a terrific course and profile!  The use of the river/creek on holes 3-12 is exceptional.  I can't think of another course that uses a river/creek to this extent.  The River Course in Kohler, WI uses the river, but it is mostly on the sides of the holes, not crossing them.  Thoughts?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 07:33:33 PM »
Now to contrast my comment above, were the trees added along the creek post-Flynn or were they always there?

At 530 yards, it would be short for longer players today, BUT it would almost be a #13 at Augusta type of drive (opposite way) if the fairway was placed along the edge of the creek.

Just interested in the evolution of the course.



Sean_A

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 08:23:39 AM »
Mike

I too wondered about those unfortunate trees along the water. 

Does the 8th remind anybody of rolling Green's 14th?  These look to be very similar holes right down to the foot bridge.   



I am pleasantly surprised by the use of the water.  There are one or two areas where I would rip out some bunkers and let the water do the only talking, but on the whole Lancaster looks to be a lovely course.  Thanks Ran.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2009, 08:43:52 AM »
In response to Mike and Sean's question regarding the trees along the riverbank, they preceded the golf course.  As a practical matter, I fear that without them (or some other stabilizer), it would not be long before the 7th fairway disappeared downstream.  Given the Flynn was not adverse to the strategic use of trees, I suspect that he intended the tee shot across the river on 7 to be influenced by the first tree though I have no evidence to support that theory. Perhaps Jim Nagle has some insight.

8 is similar to 14 at Rolling Green.  Both greens are more uphill than one perceives from the tee though I think 14 at Rolling Green penalizes a miss to a greater extent.

mike_malone

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 09:47:41 AM »
 The best thing about LCC is the members.
AKA Mayday

JNagle

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 10:01:19 AM »
Below is the aerial (courtesy of Craig Disher) of Lancaster in 1940.  Worth noting is the course still includes to holes playing to and from New Holland Pike; #13 (current tees) is still a long par 4 with a par 3 playing out of the corner.  The par 3 no longer exisits.  There is the short par 4 in the area od the current 17th and the 16th green is still in its original location (just below the current 17th tees).  If you look to the lower right you can see the land across the Conestoga where 3-6 are located.  The area has not been developed as of yet.  Flynn's plans are from 1939 (as we have been told), so the work begain some time after 1940.  #7 is located adjacent to the Conestoga River as it exists.  Interestingly, Flynn has bunkers right of the green not the pond.  I suspect frequent flooding was the reason for the change.



The next image is from 1947.  The routing is beginning to take the shape as we all know LCC.  Holes 3-6 are a part of the course and holes 13 and 17 appear as they do today.  Future changes will include the relocation of the 16th green, the rebuilding and relocation of the 2nd green and the adding of bunkers on the 4th.



This image is from 1925 and gives a birds-eye view of the course.  The prominent holes in the photo NLE.  One can clearly see the current 10th, 18th, 1st and 15th.  The two holes in the upper left NLE.  Gotta love the crossing bunker on the 18th.  We had hoped to restore about 80% of the bunker but we could not convince the Club.  However, it is probably not necessary as the 18th is one of the most difficult finishing par 4's anywhere.



As for the trees on the 7th hole, they are absolutely necessary.  Rory is correct in stating that the 7th fairway will disappear.  The trees have been there from the beginning.  I suspect the trees have little to do architecturally other than they will knock down some shots when played from the original tee.  The 8th green does take on the appearance from the ground level to that of the 14th at RG, but the bunker configuration is different.  The green is very typical of Flynn, a bunker situated on the high side and one cut into the slope of the green on the low.  The 14th at RG originally had two bunkers cut into the low wide with a large bunker parallel to the green on the left for the length of the green.  LCC's 8th has one large bunker cut on the low side with a large bunker left.  The bunker left of the green is set on a diagonal and begins at the left front of the green.  This buker was likely positioned as such providing ball containment and protecting the 2nd tee. 
It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2009, 11:41:13 AM »
Mike, I think your memory is clouded by the gobs of cash we always seem to be handing you :).

Jim:  I would venture to guess that those bunkers between the pond and green on 7 were eliminated for maintenance reasons.  The really interesting difference between the 1940 aerial and the 1947 aerial is that it appears as though the short par three in the north eastern corner of the property is located in an area now occupied by homes.  That's property I am sure we would love to have back.

As for the cross bunker on 18, some of us haven't given up!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 02:12:21 PM »
Wonderful course profile and a great addition to this site...thanks, Ran.

Lancaster is a gem, strong on variety, balance, charm, and challenge.   The string of par threes from 9 through 11 is one of the toughest three hole stretches of par fours west of Winged Foot.

The recent work is exemplary.


mike_malone

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »
 I felt that LCC was the most par four  intensive of the Flynn's that I have played. That probably came frrom that stretch Mike Cirba mentioned.
AKA Mayday

Mike Sweeney

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 08:51:46 PM »
Jim,

I am a believer in different restoration models for different courses. With that in mind, what was the model for LCC? Obviously the course had a Post WWII tree planting. Did you guys pick a date to restore it to, or other?

The aerials above is what I expected to see out in Lancaster. In a preemptive strike, nobody needs to point out my errant driving creates my bias towards wide open golf courses.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 09:45:50 PM »
As one of the few (only?) resident tree lovers on GCA, I feel that, whatever the design intent of the course, I must point out that the wide-open rolling farm fields shown in the old aerials are artificial. That area of the country was covered with forest before the great clearing during westward expansion. Now I don't know whether there was a vigorous tree-planting program or not, but given that the natural state of the site supports forest, it's no surprise that trees are flourishing.

Now that's not a value judgement as to whether the trees SHOULD be there (on the golf course) or not. I obviously love golf and a ball can't be played through a tree, but if the course should mimic the natural environment then allowances must be made.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ed Oden

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 10:19:31 PM »
Lancaster looks like absolutely terrific to me.  Thanks Ran for another fantastic review.  It is a reminder that your course profiles are what originally drew me to this site.

One thing that is noticeable from the aerials posted by Jim Nagle is the presence of rough collars separating bunkers from fairways.  This practice seems to draw fairly regular criticism in certain quarters of this board when golden age courses are similarly maintained today; the inference being that it is a modern deviation from the original design intent.  However, since Flynn was around throughout the period shown in these pictures, I can only assume that he approved.  For those that generally do not like this practice, is your opinion any different if it is consistent with the intent of the original architect?

Ed

Sean_A

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 02:07:20 AM »
Lancaster looks like absolutely terrific to me.  Thanks Ran for another fantastic review.  It is a reminder that your course profiles are what originally drew me to this site.

One thing that is noticeable from the aerials posted by Jim Nagle is the presence of rough collars separating bunkers from fairways.  This practice seems to draw fairly regular criticism in certain quarters of this board when golden age courses are similarly maintained today; the inference being that it is a modern deviation from the original design intent.  However, since Flynn was around throughout the period shown in these pictures, I can only assume that he approved.  For those that generally do not like this practice, is your opinion any different if it is consistent with the intent of the original architect?

Ed

Ed

I and others have also noticed the rough kicking bunkers into no man's land on many of these old aerials and particularly on Flynn courses.  No, regardless of what his intentions were, I think it better to push fairway at least to the fronts of bunkers.  I have asked this before because Flynn courses strike me as ones that would have been quite difficult (same with Tillie) back in the day, do folks think that Philadelphia School group think intentionally tried to bring rough more into the game?  I don't know much about these guys, but they have always stuck me as the forerunners of penal (championship?) design mode.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 07:59:46 AM »
Ed/Sean,

Where in '25 aerial is there a bunker in the rough?

Sean_A

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 08:06:17 AM »
Ed/Sean,

Where in '25 aerial is there a bunker in the rough?

Kyle

It looks to me that the light grey areas are fairway and the darker areas rough.  If so, there are loads in the rough.  If not, there isn't any rough on the course!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 08:09:42 AM »
Ed/Sean,

Where in '25 aerial is there a bunker in the rough?

Kyle

It looks to me that the light grey areas are fairway and the darker areas rough.  If so, there are loads in the rough.  If not, there isn't any rough on the course!

Ciao

If that's the case, those fairways would be ridiculously narrow. I think you're seeing an "up and back" mower pattern with the dark half being the "toward" half of the cut.

See how the fairways are cut to the bunkers in the '40 aerial?

Sean_A

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 08:35:20 AM »
Ed/Sean,

Where in '25 aerial is there a bunker in the rough?

Kyle

It looks to me that the light grey areas are fairway and the darker areas rough.  If so, there are loads in the rough.  If not, there isn't any rough on the course!

Ciao

If that's the case, those fairways would be ridiculously narrow. I think you're seeing an "up and back" mower pattern with the dark half being the "toward" half of the cut.

See how the fairways are cut to the bunkers in the '40 aerial?

Kyle

You could be right, but then there is zero rough on the course.  Also, the pattern isn't repeated throughout the course as there are clearly some holes with bunkers framing either side of the light grey areas. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ed Oden

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 08:51:03 AM »
Kyle, I agree that there is an up and back mowing pattern.  But I still see a darker shade surrounding bunkers.  Maybe I just need to clean my computer screen! 

Ed

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2009, 08:58:08 AM »
Jim will be able to articulate this point better but in response to Mike Sweeney's question regarding the use of a specific date for restoration purposes, it was agreed at Jim and Ron Forse's recommendation that it was not preferable nor possible to pick one specific moment in time.  The course evolved so much in the 26 years that Flynn was involved that to restore to say 1935 would, of necessity, result in undoing Flynn circa 1945.  This is particularly so given that the course did not cross the Conestoga until the 1940's (contrast 1940 aerial with 1947).  That move alone resulted in 4 holes being abandoned and/or joined together to create a new hole (see 13). Also, as Ran points out in the profile, 2 and 16 were altered by the relocation of the green sites in 1966.
Because of this, Ron and Jim were able to essentially do a "best of".  One of the great things from the club's perspective is that this approach gave them the freedom to implement some items from Flynn's original design circa 1919 and his design for the holes across the river (3-6).  For example, the fairway bunker arrangement on 3 was recommended by Flynn but never implemented.  Likewise, we were able to incorporate the right fairway bunker on 18 as originally conceived (not shown in the profile) and we were able to implement the three bunker arrangement Flynn conceived for 14 fairway.

Jim, if I have erred, please feel free to correct me.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Lancaster Country Club profile is posted...
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2009, 09:01:31 AM »
Kyle and Ed

  If I had to guess, I suspect that the fairways did narrow between the 1940 aerial and the 1947 aerial as a consequence of single line irrigation.

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