[Tom Birkert]

This is a tricky situation. Historically it's always been cheaper to play golf over here, with only a few clubs charging a serious amount of money (Wisley, Wentworth, Queenwood, Loch Lomond).

Many older, lesser-known clubs offer what I consider to be very good value for money deals, and I'd think it would be the newer high end clubs which would tend to suffer more - the kind of clubs that spent a lot of money on a clubhouse, gym etc trying to become a country club, which has, in general, never really appealed to the UK market.

The older, established clubs should cope better in my opinion. I don't foresee any problems at the major old school courses in the UK.

[Tony_Muldoon]

We have UK course owners and lawyers on this thread so someone please enlighten me.

What is the legal status of being a golf club member in the UK?  What I’m really curious to know is if the club goes bankrupt what is the risk to the members?  There have been cases where the club has sold it’s course and the members have all been in pocket, but what’s the downside?

For the past few weeks I’ve been asking this of friends who are members and no one has a clue. Amazing how much trust we invest in being a member of a club.

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

It's by no means my area of expertise but I would expect that where (as is the case almost universally) the club is incorporated as a limited company then if it goes into administration a member is, to use a technical legal expression, buggered.  If you have a loan account with the club (as members at my club do) that would show as a debt and you could recover in line with other unsecured debtors.  Subs and joining fees will be unrecoverable and, in the event of an asset rather than a share sale by the administrator (by far the most likely, as it means the purchaser buys free of debt) you will probably lose any right to play the course, though a purchaser may extend some privileges for the purpose of retaining goodwill.

[Paul Nash]

Sean- I think the barcard loyalty is a liberty. What if you dont drink and are not interested in food. Less than 30% use the clubhouse, so 70% get penalized. It is a problem though and the clubhouse area is a notorious loser, having to cater for just 8 meals at a fiver on dull days is the problem.

I'm with Sean on this.  If I'm a member of a club I want to have a bar and food (nothing flash but something hot and filling after a round).  Without that you haven't got a club.  Members have to fund that.  The easiest (and pleasantest way to do so being to use the damn thing) and if they won't then fees would have to go up.  A bar minimum guarantees that income and has the added benefit of encouraging people to use the bar/catering facilities.  Frankly anyone who complains about a £50 or £100 minimum has got a nerve, it would be difficult to be an active member of a club and not spend that much.  Like Sean I'd have no problem with a £250 minimum.

Interestingly my club had been intending to introduce a minimum this year but hasn't needed to as bar and catering income is significantly up since we redeveloped our clubhouse last winter.

I totally agree with a bar levy card. My club does £250 to use in the bar/ restaurant and the pro shop. I have spent 10 times this in each of the last 3 years I have been there. £250 goes very quickly if you have a bit of food and go to 19th hole after a game, which everyone at the club seems to - it is what gives the place a vibe and makes it a club rather than a course. I have never heard anyone at the club say anything against it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I read the posts with great interest.  I realize that there is a huge difference between the way UK clubs are funded and the US clubs.  But living on the left side of the "pond" I find the discussion fascinating.  I would love to be able to play for what you pay.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony,

It's by no means my area of expertise but I would expect that where (as is the case almost universally) the club is incorporated as a limited company then if it goes into administration a member is, to use a technical legal expression, buggered.  If you have a loan account with the club (as members at my club do) that would show as a debt and you could recover in line with other unsecured debtors.  Subs and joining fees will be unrecoverable and, in the event of an asset rather than a share sale by the administrator (by far the most likely, as it means the purchaser buys free of debt) you will probably lose any right to play the course, though a purchaser may extend some privileges for the purpose of retaining goodwill.

Mark - I think thats pretty much right.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean- I think the barcard loyalty is a liberty. What if you dont drink and are not interested in food. Less than 30% use the clubhouse, so 70% get penalized. It is a problem though and the clubhouse area is a notorious loser, having to cater for just 8 meals at a fiver on dull days is the problem.

I'm with Sean on this.  If I'm a member of a club I want to have a bar and food (nothing flash but something hot and filling after a round).  Without that you haven't got a club.  Members have to fund that.  The easiest (and pleasantest way to do so being to use the damn thing) and if they won't then fees would have to go up.  A bar minimum guarantees that income and has the added benefit of encouraging people to use the bar/catering facilities.  Frankly anyone who complains about a £50 or £100 minimum has got a nerve, it would be difficult to be an active member of a club and not spend that much.  Like Sean I'd have no problem with a £250 minimum.

Interestingly my club had been intending to introduce a minimum this year but hasn't needed to as bar and catering income is significantly up since we redeveloped our clubhouse last winter.

I totally agree with a bar levy card. My club does £250 to use in the bar/ restaurant and the pro shop. I have spent 10 times this in each of the last 3 years I have been there. £250 goes very quickly if you have a bit of food and go to 19th hole after a game, which everyone at the club seems to - it is what gives the place a vibe and makes it a club rather than a course. I have never heard anyone at the club say anything against it.

Paul- I dont doubt that many of this site would be against it, we are golf nuts, but 30% being clubhouse users is normal. Most golf clubs really struggle to balance the books £250 x 700 members ..its not going to happen at British Golf Clubs. There will be an occasional course where it will work, you at Bearwood are at a new course and in an affluent area. A course just outside Accrington... they will moan if the pot of tea goes from 55p to 60p!!!

[Adrian_Stiff]

BTW- 30% of members using the clubhouse has been the norm for a long time, it is not a recent time. I expect some of our members have never been in the clubhouse once.

Adrian

Yes, but, when the dues are £400 it isn't such a critical factor for most members. Like the economy, when times are good clubs should have been putting dosh away, carrying out critical course maintenance and thinking/implementing ways to put in place measures for income generation for the lean times.  Members may have bitched, but they still would know they were getting great value even with a "futures tax". 

I would like to play The Players when its drier out.  I would also like to see that 9 holer (don't recall the name) I think you built somewhere over toward Oxford (I think).  I really liked the pix I saw of this course.  I think GCAer is the super there - no?

Ciao

 

sean- Cumberwell is the one you mean , its 9 holes of a 36 holer and Marc Haring is the super there. I am sure nothing will be a problem, its 20 minutes from The Players. C u in May!!

[Paul Nash]

Sean- I think the barcard loyalty is a liberty. What if you dont drink and are not interested in food. Less than 30% use the clubhouse, so 70% get penalized. It is a problem though and the clubhouse area is a notorious loser, having to cater for just 8 meals at a fiver on dull days is the problem.

I'm with Sean on this.  If I'm a member of a club I want to have a bar and food (nothing flash but something hot and filling after a round).  Without that you haven't got a club.  Members have to fund that.  The easiest (and pleasantest way to do so being to use the damn thing) and if they won't then fees would have to go up.  A bar minimum guarantees that income and has the added benefit of encouraging people to use the bar/catering facilities.  Frankly anyone who complains about a £50 or £100 minimum has got a nerve, it would be difficult to be an active member of a club and not spend that much.  Like Sean I'd have no problem with a £250 minimum.

Interestingly my club had been intending to introduce a minimum this year but hasn't needed to as bar and catering income is significantly up since we redeveloped our clubhouse last winter.

I totally agree with a bar levy card. My club does £250 to use in the bar/ restaurant and the pro shop. I have spent 10 times this in each of the last 3 years I have been there. £250 goes very quickly if you have a bit of food and go to 19th hole after a game, which everyone at the club seems to - it is what gives the place a vibe and makes it a club rather than a course. I have never heard anyone at the club say anything against it.

Paul- I dont doubt that many of this site would be against it, we are golf nuts, but 30% being clubhouse users is normal. Most golf clubs really struggle to balance the books £250 x 700 members ..its not going to happen at British Golf Clubs. There will be an occasional course where it will work, you at Bearwood are at a new course and in an affluent area. A course just outside Accrington... they will moan if the pot of tea goes from 55p to 60p!!!

Hi Adrian
I just think that the way clubs will survive is by being good clubs where people want to or are proud to be members of. It is clear that clubs need more money than provided by subs so I can't see how most clubs couldn't pass a £5/ week pre-payment for members to spend throughout the year - add an inducement by loading their cards with a premium - out club offer 5% and the same on every top up uf £250 or more - not very generous but at least it is something!

It is a bit of a catch 22 for clubs to succeed - they need to be good enough to attract and keep the members by consistently investing and upgrading the course, but they need the money to do this. My former club (Caversham Heath)used to stop serving food at 4pm and our big social group of golfers - often 4 or 5 tee times coming in together, would often want food but couldn't get it. Similarly, without a half way hut, we were desperate for drinks on the course but to no avail - a buggy sometimes appeared but not very often. Just a bit of change on these policies could have brought it thousands. I go to my club for sunday lunch a few times per year with the family and often eat there before or after golf - I think clubs need to make sure they are not wasting these valuable revenue opportunities by not providing food etc or not providing good enough quality. We have a halfway hut that is always open - again every group (almost) stops there and this is a good service and brings in good money. Similarly offereing function rooms etc for day delegates. They need to look to maximise the revenues they can potentially make, but by keeping members on side - i.e. not flooding the course with cheap 2-4-1 deals and big societies all the time - these are the clubs that turn into just golf courses by alienating members. Similarly, if members of a club, not a course, want to ensure they get good quality golf, they should have a bit of a duty to support their clubs, providing that the clubs offer the right services - that is where management need to be sharp to ensure they offer the best combination of services - I would rather support the club by members spending money on services than the fees go up to cover the deficit. I pay more than I want to for fees but I, and other members, demand quality golf and services - and as long as they keep providing this it justifies (almost) the premium to the other local clubs. I wish I could pay less but the convenience and quality win out at the moment while I can just about afford it. Another baby mid-year may make the justification harder!

[Rich Goodale]

Everybody is right that it is tougt times for golf course/clubs, not only in England but also in Scotland.

I think that Mark Pearce is right regarding the need to have some sort of bar/restaurant minimums, but I now that at my two clubs people will balk at that idea (and have at one, where the pitifully small £25/year minimum was scrapped at the latest AGM).  Why?  Well....I think that at both of my clubs (one well known, one village) there are probably a majority of members who harldy frequent the place and when they do play little or no serious golf.  Membership to them is a conveniece or badge of honor, and anything which requires them to show a commitment to the club, rather than its aura, and which costs some money, no matter how little, is just too mujch for them.

What is happening, I see, is a slow but accelerating purging from memberships of those who are not committed to the club and/or the game of golf.  In a sense, this is good, in that what should come out of the ashes is a stronger and more cohesive club, but I wonder.....  If too many casual members are hived off, will enough remain to keep the club solvent?  One answer at one of my clubs has been to increase "social" membership (i.e. no playing privileges but access to the relatively spectacular clubhouse.  It has worked in the sense of bringing more people into the facility, but center of gravity of the ethos of the club is shifting from golf to entertainment.  Maybe this is good, maybe nbot.  We shall see.

[Bruce Katona]

A view from left side says business wise, the halfway house and an on site refreshment person (beverage cart people) are very profitable money makers for any club, at little or no additional operating cost other than the cost of goods sold.

If your 250 pound annual stipend would include these charges while on the course, the issue of raising dues may be avoided....

[Niall C]

Rich

Not sure I agree with what you're saying about golfers not supporting clubs. I think a lot of members really only want the basics in terms of what the clubhouse has to offer. When I think back to clubhouse facilities of old, with basic changing facilities and catering only at peak time, honesty boxes even, it all seems to me an altogether better age when the golf was more important than what was on the menu when you got back to the clubhouse.

If the club has to coerce members into using some facilities more often ie. bar/restaurant, when clearly they would rather not, that tells me that the club should consider reducing the level of catering. After all why should I subsidise those who want a nice meal and drink on order all day. If you want that then get yourself off to the Burghfieldhouse Hotel.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Niall

 

[Bill_McBride]

Let's hope the UK clubhouses don't cut out that one truly essential amenity, the drying room!   

Where would we be without the drying room!? 

[Rich Goodale]

Rich

Not sure I agree with what you're saying about golfers not supporting clubs. I think a lot of members really only want the basics in terms of what the clubhouse has to offer. When I think back to clubhouse facilities of old, with basic changing facilities and catering only at peak time, honesty boxes even, it all seems to me an altogether better age when the golf was more important than what was on the menu when you got back to the clubhouse.

If the club has to coerce members into using some facilities more often ie. bar/restaurant, when clearly they would rather not, that tells me that the club should consider reducing the level of catering. After all why should I subsidise those who want a nice meal and drink on order all day. If you want that then get yourself off to the Burghfieldhouse Hotel.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Niall

 

Good points, Niall.  Keep your chest burdened!

I too would prefer those goode olden days when facilities were minimal and golf ruled the roost, but I think those days are over--even in the deepest darkest parts of Scotland.  Clubhouses have slowly grown and maintenance practices increased in complexity with the result that costs are rising faster than inflation.  Coupled with this is the fact that there are more facilities/clubs chasing fewer and fewer real golfers (i.e. the ones like you and I who like our golfing experiences lean and mean).  So, clubs have needed to attract the casual and non-golfers to balance their books which means that they are more and more being goverened by cyphers rather than true lovers and keepers of the game.

The best days of my golfing life were when the Dornoch clubhouse was lean and mean, the course was unwatered and rough around the edges, the Council was full of golfers with a history, and if you wanted to be watered and fed all you had to do was go back to the Burghfield for a night of debauchery.  Sic transit gloria mundi.....

[Sean_A]

Rich

Not sure I agree with what you're saying about golfers not supporting clubs. I think a lot of members really only want the basics in terms of what the clubhouse has to offer. When I think back to clubhouse facilities of old, with basic changing facilities and catering only at peak time, honesty boxes even, it all seems to me an altogether better age when the golf was more important than what was on the menu when you got back to the clubhouse.

If the club has to coerce members into using some facilities more often ie. bar/restaurant, when clearly they would rather not, that tells me that the club should consider reducing the level of catering. After all why should I subsidise those who want a nice meal and drink on order all day. If you want that then get yourself off to the Burghfieldhouse Hotel.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Niall

 

Good points, Niall.  Keep your chest burdened!

I too would prefer those goode olden days when facilities were minimal and golf ruled the roost, but I think those days are over--even in the deepest darkest parts of Scotland.  Clubhouses have slowly grown and maintenance practices increased in complexity with the result that costs are rising faster than inflation.  Coupled with this is the fact that there are more facilities/clubs chasing fewer and fewer real golfers (i.e. the ones like you and I who like our golfing experiences lean and mean).  So, clubs have needed to attract the casual and non-golfers to balance their books which means that they are more and more being goverened by cyphers rather than true lovers and keepers of the game.

The best days of my golfing life were when the Dornoch clubhouse was lean and mean, the course was unwatered and rough around the edges, the Council was full of golfers with a history, and if you wanted to be watered and fed all you had to do was go back to the Burghfield for a night of debauchery.  Sic transit gloria mundi.....

Rich

I think what I am saying and your lean and mean are one and the same.  Only my idea of lean and mean includes bar meals and paying for stuff up front via a bar card so clubs can better budget in lean times such as now - it does make life easier for the club.  That said I would hate to see the minimum amount be as high as at many clubs in the States.  Now I really can understand minimums of $100 a month and well beyond this to be well ott.  One thing that always amazes me about catering at golf clubs in the UK is that they don't have any drive to earn money.  Very little effort is put forth to grab the money of a captive audience.  For instance, there are few instances of

halfway houses
grilles/soup sandwich setups between 9s
ready made baps on the bar (or even tapas!)
grilles set out in the am on busy summer weekends

All of these options would help to reduce man hours in the kitchen so they need only be open at optimum times and days.

For the most part golfers are creatures of quick comforting food that they will buy on impulse and caterers just don't make the effort to exploit this demand. 

Ciao

BTW  Does the Struie at Dornoch play more like old time links than the big course?  I was amazed when I found the the wee Channel Course (which is quite btw) at Burnham to play much linksier than the big course.  It really makes me wonder when folks say they only water when necessary.

[Bruce Katona]

Sean: your last post is spot on for the UK courses to easily increase F&B revenues...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sadly the UK is very different than other places in the world. Very few golfers are interested in food. Half way houses have been tried but most golfers walk past, sad but it is a fact, if you count a fact as the majority. The costs of staffing a halfway house means you lose more money, if you just open selected times you can probably do okay, but as soon as your shut and someone wants. you have got a whine and a moan. I guess we must be just extremely mean here, they work everywhere else in the world. The best thing to keep dues down is No clubhouse. Perhaps a simple pavilion that is a small changing room, small pro shop not selling hardware, bar, tables, outside patio area, just sale beer, hot drinks, snacks, pies, sandwiches, toasties perhaps grill stuff. It would save a fortune on annual costs and on initial infrastructure. Not suitable for higher end membership clubs, but the way to have a great golf course and make money at the $50 a round end.

[Sean_A]

Sadly the UK is very different than other places in the world. Very few golfers are interested in food. Half way houses have been tried but most golfers walk past, sad but it is a fact, if you count a fact as the majority. The costs of staffing a halfway house means you lose more money, if you just open selected times you can probably do okay, but as soon as your shut and someone wants you have got someone whine and a moan. I guess we must be just extremely mean here, they work everywhere else in the world. The best thing to keep dues down is No clubhouse. Perhaps a simple pavilion that is a small changing room, small pro shop not selling hardware, bar, tables outside patio area, just sale beer, hot drinks, snacks, pies, sandwiches, toasties perhaps grill stuff. It would save a fortune on annual costs and on initial infrastructure. No suitable for higher end membership clubs, but the way to have a great golf course and make money at the $50 a round end.

Adrian

My experience of halfway houses/huts in the UK is that most people stop if they are not near the house especially in iffy weather.  This is also true if the clubhouse isn't open for breakfast.  All it takes is one in the group wanting to stop and the others will oblige and most likely end up having something while they wait.  These things can be profitable Adrian, but it takes a wee bit of savy on the part of what is generally a lame catering industry in the UK.  I always said that if a guy can't make money at golf club with overheads covered and a captive audience he is not doing the right things. 

My favourite halfway hut was at Deal when the old geezer ran it.  I can recall being delayed there for an extra gill or two when the weather was less than pleasant.  In fact, I don't think I have ever seen Deal in decent weather.  What, doesn't the club pay its sunshine tax to our cretin Scots PM? 

Ciao   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Its not easy making money at a golf course, but halfway houses are usually losers if you staff them 7 days a week and open for pretty much the golfing day. Remember that you have the costs of the food which are high, bacon is very expensive for example, wages are a big outlay, heat, light, kitchen cleaning chemicals are silly money to comply with legislation now. factor in that every £1 you take you only get 85p with the vat, its not a great earner, also on bad days only a few golfers might play. Also you are feeding golfers that might have a meal later. Halfway houses are more of a service Sean.

[Marty Bonnar]

I nipped in to BPGC last week to pay my final instalment for this years Subs. (We pay £40 a month in the previous 9 months and then top up whatever remains after the December AGM). A Full Gents membership is now £410 a year. Peanuts, I know, but while I was there, chatting with our Club Administrator, he let slip that somewhere between 40 and 50 Gents are not renewing this Season. Lots of folk are losing jobs and/or moving away, leaving a good few Clubs like ours a bit short on members. Some places are offering No Joining Fee intro offers and so on, but I still fear it's the beginning of a very long and very slippery slope.

Change is inevitable, Grasshopper...

FBD.

[Sean_A]

Its not easy making money at a golf course, but halfway houses are usually losers if you staff them 7 days a week and open for pretty much the golfing day. Remember that you have the costs of the food which are high, bacon is very expensive for example, wages are a big outlay, heat, light, kitchen cleaning chemicals are silly money to comply with legislation now. factor in that every £1 you take you only get 85p with the vat, its not a great earner, also on bad days only a few golfers might play. Also you are feeding golfers that might have a meal later. Halfway houses are more of a service Sean.

Adrian

At all of the clubs I have belonged to the overheads such as electricty, gas, maintenance, insurance etc are paid by the club.  Furthermore, at two of the clubs I belonged to a free flat was thrown in.  I never said it was a great earner, I said it takes some savy to do well.  That said, the caterers at my previous club do VERY well and they don't control the booze.  They have always had the idea that if folks won't sit in the restaurant then you have to bring the food to them.  If suitably impressed, then folks will go out of their way to sit in the restaurant.  Again, they are clever and run special themed evenings etc and aren't open every night or morning.  It can be done my friend, but folks have to want work to make money.  As I say, I have never seen such a poor quality catering culture as exists in the UK. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean- If you have no rent, no rates, no energy costs and you have a franchise, free flat of course you can make money.from the catering.. but the golf club is paying for those costs,  what use it to the golf club other than a service. I thought we were talking about the catering aspect being a way of keping fees down and a £250 levy to be spent in the clubhouse.
Catering for numbers that might be 150 in a day or if the weather is bad is between 30 and zero, 7 days a week while the golf course is open is a business that is almost impossible to make money here in the UK.  You have to plan the staffing rotas 2 -3 weeks in advance when you dont know your weather. The margins are just not great and too many people do not want food or they even bring their own, plenty of the stuff we find in our litter bins we dont sell, golf is cheap in the UK and UK people conserve their coins, especially amongst the older brigade who live off their pensions, the average golf club has an averaged age of something like 59... A golf club with lots of visitors, socities will be different, but believe me A halfway house wont keep membership fees lower in the UK. If you ran a golf club it would frighten you, you get some great members that really support everything others give nothing.

[Mark Chaplin]

NO ONE walks past the hut at Deal it's considered very poor form. The current hut boss Ken is a really good chap and very popular with the members.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Seriously I think the current financial state of the country is accelerating trends that will shape the face of golf here for the next 50 years.  Its open warfare for income and most clubs are ill equipped to survive this battle. Like Sean I left an old established club last summer and no one called to ask why. Most clubs are just not run like businesses and they’ve ‘got away with it’ for years.

Close to where I live in London there are two clubs with famous architects that were really thriving 25 years ago.  Both are inside the M25 and have a massive potential catchment. One in order to satisfy the Bank Manager sacked its two highest salaries, the Secretary and the Catering Manager.  The Bank Manager accepted a survival plan that required them to increase members by 10%; with steps like that it’s not going to happen.  The other has sent out a request for members to stomp up more cash to help them meet an electricity bill! They’ve introduced a winter offer of a round of golf for two visitors for £15.00. Two years ago they quoted me £45 per person. The pensioners who told me of the offer thought a much less interesting course offering them two rounds and a fried breakfast for £18.00 was more attractive. 

When historians look back they will see the rapid expansion of pay and play courses in recent decades undermined the whole golf scene in England and Ireland (I believe it’s always been a little different Scotland). Any club today without a real waiting list is now at risk. Resignations will not be replaced in the next few years.  Clubs that go bust will be bought up and then added to the amazing choice of courses to play for a daily fee. As the recession ends a smaller no of clubs will survive on the traditional model and having a waiting list will mean 'something' again. Those clubs will be able to choose members who will contribute and a certain ‘exclusiveness’ will ensure traditional values are maintained in certain places.

It’s often remarked how with all the equipment changes handicaps (measure of skill?) are not falling.  When people pay an upfront annual fee I’m sure they try and play more because each round is ‘free’ - that's how they improve as players (or not).With more golfers playing daily fee the attraction of playing EVERY week diminishes.  Infrequent play does not make the game easier and those players are easily persuded t do something else with their leisure time. Typically I see the players whose skill allows them to become better golfers being the only ones who choose to pay high fees at private clubs in future.

If I had spare cash golf would be well down my list of industries to invest in, despite the fact that courses will become available at prices that only a few months ago would appear 'for a song.'

I have to tell you that normally most of my friends would call me an optimist.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm stuck in the office at half past midnight, trying to settle a case and come on here for a bit of light entertainment.  Having read Tony's post (most of which, sadly, rings very true) I feel like ending it all.  It's certainly true that the next few years will be a real challenge for traditional UK clubs and a good many will go to the wall.  The pay as you play alternative doesn't appeal to me at all:  clubs won't feel like clubs, etiquette will suffer, standards (both of play and behaviour) will drop and play will be slower.

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