Tough times in England

[Tim Liddy]

Another depressing article about the state of golf - but very interesting:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article5586765.ece

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Not surprising but interesting none the less. thanks I think the pound dallar change over the last 3 or so days will help reduce the obvious and significant decline in visator play this coming summer.

[Mark Bourgeois]

In the short term, clubs might benefit from working with travel operators to create low cost, Myrtle Beach-type inclusive packages.

Tiger, lower green fees help - assuming clubs don't shoot themselves in the foot and price in euro or dollars - but it's probably not seen by overseas golfers as the main barrier.

Long term, the lack of new players must be especially worrisome. The UK is home to speedy rounds, and reasonable club membership prices, so it will be interesting to see whether and how this seemingly solveable problem is solved.

Unfortunately, America is sort of the antichrist of golf, at least as far as these two factors go, and will not gain the full benefit of lessons learned from UK.

Too bad, too, because America is the greatest Pragmatist (of course: we invented this philosophy!) nation in recorded history. So maybe after all, we will borrow more, and because we're are Americans, improve upon what we see.

Mark

[Mark Chaplin]

There are in the region of 2000 golf courses in the UK, I would guess well under 5% recieve significant revenues from overseas visitors.

Our big issue is we basically do not pay big bucks for our golf, few clubs charge over £1000 a year and only a handful more than £2000 a year.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Our big issue is we basically do not pay big bucks for our golf, few clubs charge over £1000 a year and only a handful more than £2000 a year.

I thought our (U.S.) big issue was that we paid too much for our clubs....

[Sean_A]

Our big issue is we basically do not pay big bucks for our golf, few clubs charge over £1000 a year and only a handful more than £2000 a year.

I thought our (U.S.) big issue was that we paid too much for our clubs....

Mike

Its all relative.  I know a few hard core golfers that are seriously thinking of quitting their clubs because they don't think they are getting value at £850 a year.  Dues have doubled in the past 9 years.  With all the stupid tree planting, growing of rough and narrowing fairways, it was the final straw when my dues hit £800.  I wasn't taking anymore and plenty (especially older members feel very similar).  When I did resign nobody asked me why so it isn't likely I will ever go back, but there is a new head greenkeeper so I will wait and see what this guy comes up with before burning any bridges.  Its a tough decision to walk away from your mates because lets face it, clubs are very insular and you have to be in to have any shot of being in - if you know what I mean.   

Ciao 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Sean.
I thought that Mark was saying that they underpriced the market and should price higher - the opposite of here - which I thought was funny - as then there would be no model that works.

I'm under the assumption that the old UK model works - unless you want to get rich.
You are saying that your low prices are still too high.

Am I correct in my understanding?


Don't let their insensitivity cloud your judgement about possibly returning when the numbers and course conditions pencil out for you.

Cheers

[Sean_A]

Thanks Sean.
I thought that Mark was saying that they underpriced the market and should price higher - the opposite of here - which I thought was funny - as then there would be no model that works.

I'm under the assumption that the old UK model works - unless you want to get rich.
You are saying that your low prices are still too high.

Am I correct in my understanding?


Don't let their insensitivity cloud your judgement about possibly returning when the numbers and course conditions pencil out for you.

Cheers

Mike

Absolutely, dues and joining fees are considered too high for a great many people who consider joining private clubs.  Almost every golfer  talk to will bottom line what the first year costs.  When it approaches the price of a good family holiday many scoff.  Another very real problem with escalating dues is its impact on fixed income pensioners and this section of most memberships is very heavily represented.  Many of these folks getting on in years don't play all that often and retain membership as much out of habit and staying in touch with mates as the golf. 

I think the scenario of rising costs and reduced memberships is going to continue at most clubs for the foreseeable future.  Other than reinventing themselves with new mission statements (as the Yanks like to say!) clubs are going to have to cut costs both on the course and in the house.  Jeepers, we dropped SKY because it was costing £5000 a year.  I know at my club there has been serious long term planning to cut costs by creating a more sustainable course less reliant on input.  These plans continue, but the membership is going to have to get on board as it will require some short term investment.  At the moment it is a shakey proposition.  Many members complain that the greens aren't what they once were, but they also complain about rising dues.  This seems totally unreasonable to me, but that seems to be how most memberships think.  They constantly want more for less without a clear idea of reality.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

It is definetly going to be tough in 2009. Poor UK summer weather in 2008 and in 2007 mean the £850 per year member simply has not got his value, the economic situation will mean many cant afford to play at those levels.

I think many people in the UK will play less and they will want to play cheaper. Lots will leave clubs, there will be more pay and play, the initial one off joining fee will become very rare.

The better clubs will suffer the most.

[Tom_Doak]

The better clubs will suffer the most?

I assume you meant the higher-priced clubs?  If they are really better, they should not suffer as much, should they?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom D - The better clubs are generally the ones a bit more pricy, most top 100 courses are, they may need to do something they have not done before and do special deals. Obviously there are some good cheap courses out there, generally though Tom the nice cheapies are in more difficult locations.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom D - I think the better courses that are privately owned will suffer the most. One Kent course is up for sale for £750 000, built by the Japanese less than 20 years ago their investment was 8 figures. Now the clubhouse has been sold and the course alone is being sold with no prospect of planning to build a clubhouse.

The top private clubs are a different matter, if wait lists and entrance fees drop many will pick up members from other local clubs who will take the opportunity to join the better club at the easiest time. I can imagine members of second tier clubs in the Woking area looking at the 3Ws and wondering whether there's a chance to "upgrade" their membership.

I may have been misunderstood in a previous post, Brits do not want to pay much for their golf so clubs work on short margins, a downturn will very quickly affect clubs who do not react to the market conditions. Sending out extra accounts at the end of the year to make up a loss isn't our way.

It may seem strange but some of you Americans will be paying more in caddy fees each year than we pay for our entire club package and we will still think it's poor value or expensive.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The biggest thing that keeps people in clubs in the UK is 'being part' the playing in the competitions and the playing with your friends, members either mingle with those crowds or play in the own fourballs with friends, quite often it can be one person that splits that fourball.

It will be interesting to see if a Dornoch gets affected much and if a situation exists this year where at St Andrews on the old course you can play in the summer without the ballott. Somewhere like Wentworth at £300 per round will see a biggish drop I would think.

I am down in Sth Spain at the moment and most of the courses I have seen hardly anyone is playing. It looks down 75% to me and its pretty much peak season.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Adrian, Are S Spanish green fees as huge as they were a few years ago? I think the number of holiday makers is drastically reduced. I wonder if they'll try the new developments in countries such as Bulgaria which are apparently aimed at the well-heeled visitor?

Falling membership is clearly a problem in the UK, but social pressures are there, too. Someone reminded me the other day that I am a member of a golf club not a golf course. In other words, I don't spend enough time (and, therefore, enough money) at the club.  catering is a big loss-maker at some clubs, and a serious problem at others.

[Sean_A]

Adrian, Are S Spanish green fees as huge as they were a few years ago? I think the number of holiday makers is drastically reduced. I wonder if they'll try the new developments in countries such as Bulgaria which are apparently aimed at the well-heeled visitor?

Falling membership is clearly a problem in the UK, but social pressures are there, too. Someone reminded me the other day that I am a member of a golf club not a golf course. In other words, I don't spend enough time (and, therefore, enough money) at the club.  catering is a big loss-maker at some clubs, and a serious problem at others.

Mark

Nobody talks about it, but the UK is in the middle of a revolution at the moment.  The idea of these bar cards with minimum yearly spends is sweeping the country and a lot of older members don't like the idea of these "American" style minimums even if they are laughably set at £50 or even £100 a year.  The concept of the traditional club with traditional services is on its way out the door unless members will accept these bar cards with a lot higher minimums than £50.  I can't understand why members don't think £250 a year (remember - thats something like two pints a week) or a bit more isn't reasonable to expect a member to spend on food and drink.  I don't think it is gonna happen, but a way forward in trying to balance budgets without the continuing 5-10% increases in dues year on year is for clubs members to use the house a lot more. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Wentworth West course is closed most of next year so it maybe a good time to invest and close during the recession.

I fear clubs such as mine will suffer from a drop in second club golfers. Second clubs are like gym membership great when you use them and have the cash but easy to drop when things become tight. I hope I'm wrong but the seaside course automatically lose catchment area so country members are often very important to the clubs.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, Are S Spanish green fees as huge as they were a few years ago? I think the number of holiday makers is drastically reduced. I wonder if they'll try the new developments in countries such as Bulgaria which are apparently aimed at the well-heeled visitor?

Falling membership is clearly a problem in the UK, but social pressures are there, too. Someone reminded me the other day that I am a member of a golf club not a golf course. In other words, I don't spend enough time (and, therefore, enough money) at the club.  catering is a big loss-maker at some clubs, and a serious problem at others.

Mark- Yes many have slashed the price. Maybe 2 years ago a green fee was 100Eu, La Cala you can play as a 4 ball for 33 Eu and that includes a buggy. The newer Europa is quite a nice course. It is still quiet though because perhaps UK golfers are thinking, flights are more, economy situation and they are used to high green fees. Its needs a tour operator to come in with an all in deal probably. Another problem is our £. Its £4.50 for a gin and tonic, or pint of guiness, the bars are dead, resturants too and a lot of ex pats cant afford to live here and are going back to the UK.
Bulgaria is still backward. It has few golf courses and only a few that are what you would to play on, I was there in September and looked at the New Gary Player course on the Black Sea. It had been opened about a month and looked very nice and was in good condition, it was a sunny day and guess how many people were on the course.... none.
I have a 100 hectares 20 minutes from Varna airport, lovely piece of land very natural, planning for 500 dwellings, bars, hotel, shops etc. I can't get anyone interested in funding it. Bulgaria will take time, its plus points are there are some nice pieces of land quite like Britain, a minus is..it is not Spain and the weather could be +12 or -5 in february. I think winter golf there will not happen, though you can get nice days.

MarkC - Oh yes I forgot they are doing the greens, that will fit nicely and the second club thing will happen I'm sure.

Sean- I think the barcard loyalty is a liberty. What if you dont drink and are not interested in food. Less than 30% use the clubhouse, so 70% get penalized. It is a problem though and the clubhouse area is a notorious loser, having to cater for just 8 meals at a fiver on dull days is the problem.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean- I think the barcard loyalty is a liberty. What if you dont drink and are not interested in food. Less than 30% use the clubhouse, so 70% get penalized. It is a problem though and the clubhouse area is a notorious loser, having to cater for just 8 meals at a fiver on dull days is the problem.

I'm with Sean on this.  If I'm a member of a club I want to have a bar and food (nothing flash but something hot and filling after a round).  Without that you haven't got a club.  Members have to fund that.  The easiest (and pleasantest way to do so being to use the damn thing) and if they won't then fees would have to go up.  A bar minimum guarantees that income and has the added benefit of encouraging people to use the bar/catering facilities.  Frankly anyone who complains about a £50 or £100 minimum has got a nerve, it would be difficult to be an active member of a club and not spend that much.  Like Sean I'd have no problem with a £250 minimum.

Interestingly my club had been intending to introduce a minimum this year but hasn't needed to as bar and catering income is significantly up since we redeveloped our clubhouse last winter.

[Adrian_Stiff]

£250 per person and you would destroy most UK golf clubs. You must remember the huge percentage of people that dont use the clubhouse. It is different now with the smoking law changes, but there was no way my dad would have gone into a smokey clubhouse. £250 is quite a lot with drinking driving laws its not easy, you must understand the problems that clubhouses face these days a lot of people go for a drink more locally. You dont really sale wine in any quantity in the UK. Some clubs near housing will be different of course. People are on even more of a budget theses days and dont want to eat at the golf club. Some will of course, but typically this is the type of scenario that committees try and get through at golf clubs and its their wish being high clubhouse users, then they wonder why they lose 10% of their members. It is a model that does not work in the UK we change in the car park too much, remember this simple fact people join a golf club to play golf. Some and probably most on this site will love the clubhouse bit too but many are groups of 4s that play the same time very week and have no intrest in the clubhouse.

[Scott Warren]

As an example, I came to the UK very much interested in joining a club.

I asked around a few average tracks in Surrey and they all wanted in the region of £1500 joining fee and £1500 annual membership.

Over the course of two years that's £4500 - for that same price I can play three times a month at The Addington, which is similarly located in relation to my home.

I think the visitor fees for the UK's world class courses are, in contrast, very reasonable when you compare them to membership.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott the relationship between green fee and membership has got more attractive in favour of paying and playing as you say. When we used to set membership fees we used to price an annual membership in a range between 20 and 30 times the green fee. Some are up to 35 and 40 now and another problem is you can get 2-4-1 vouchers at about 50% of all golf clubs or a county card which enables cheap golf. If you like your golf varied like Sean does, the pay and play and pay different courses, it does make sense.

[Sean_A]

£250 per person and you would destroy most UK golf clubs. You must remember the huge percentage of people that dont use the clubhouse. It is different now with the smoking law changes, but there was no way my dad would have gone into a smokey clubhouse. £250 is quite a lot with drinking driving laws its not easy, you must understand the problems that clubhouses face these days a lot of people go for a drink more locally. You dont really sale wine in any quantity in the UK. Some clubs near housing will be different of course. People are on even more of a budget theses days and dont want to eat at the golf club. Some will of course, but typically this is the type of scenario that committees try and get through at golf clubs and its their wish being high clubhouse users, then they wonder why they lose 10% of their members. It is a model that does not work in the UK we change in the car park too much, remember this simple fact people join a golf club to play golf. Some and probably most on this site will love the clubhouse bit too but many are groups of 4s that play the same time very week and have no intrest in the clubhouse.

Adrian

If folks don't use the house then the club is being destroyed anyway - it may as well be a public course.   I for one have no interest in belonging to a club that isn't a club even if it means higher dues.  If folks don't want to support club facilities with a very modest sum of about £5 a week they really aren't worth keeping as members.  Honestly, its a very selfish attitude that does the club no good.  I don't have a lot of time for parking lot members hence the reason I like the no changing in the lot rule - tee hee.    

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree largely with what your saying but £5 per week is £250 per year on top of their £850, thats £1100 and for 10% it would just be a deal breaker. You must come down and play at The Players this spring.

[Adrian_Stiff]

BTW- 30% of members using the clubhouse has been the norm for a long time, it is not a recent time. I expect some of our members have never been in the clubhouse once.

[Sean_A]

BTW- 30% of members using the clubhouse has been the norm for a long time, it is not a recent time. I expect some of our members have never been in the clubhouse once.

Adrian

Yes, but, when the dues are £400 it isn't such a critical factor for most members. Like the economy, when times are good clubs should have been putting dosh away, carrying out critical course maintenance and thinking/implementing ways to put in place measures for income generation for the lean times.  Members may have bitched, but they still would know they were getting great value even with a "futures tax". 

I would like to play The Players when its drier out.  I would also like to see that 9 holer (don't recall the name) I think you built somewhere over toward Oxford (I think).  I really liked the pix I saw of this course.  I think GCAer is the super there - no?

Ciao