Hardest Courses in America for Mid to High Handicappers

[Jim Thornton]

For sake of this discussion, I will define mid to high handicappers as 12 to 20 and I will assume that white, or member tees, were used.

A few of the ones that dispensed the harshest punishment on me:

Galloway National -  If this isn't the hardest course in America, I don't know what is.  I literally got physically sick an hour after walking of the course.  My fellow players insisted it was a sudden onset of stomach flu.  I, on the other had, remain steadfast in my belief that the golf course made me sick.

Pine Valley
PGA West Stadium
Whisper Rock Upper
Bethpage Black
Olympic Lake

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - wouldn't the easiest way to ascertain this be to use the highest bogey ratings (which one can extrapolate if one has the slope)?

I don't mean to be a smartass... but bogey rating is indeed a very true measure of how difficult a course is for a bogey golfer.... and heck, if one doesn't want to trouble with the math, slope alone will be a pretty darn good start....


TH

[rjsimper]

For sake of this discussion, I will define mid to high handicappers as 12 to 20 and I will assume that white, or member tees, were used.

A few of the ones that dispensed the harshest punishment on me:

Galloway National -  If this isn't the hardest course in America, I don't know what is.  I literally got physically sick an hour after walking of the course.  My fellow players insisted it was a sudden onset of stomach flu.  I, on the other had, remain steadfast in my belief that the golf course made me sick.

Pine Valley
PGA West Stadium
Whisper Rock Upper
Bethpage Black
Olympic Lake

Why was Galloway so difficult for you?

It is not an easy course by any means, but I can name plenty that are tougher for the mid/high 'capper. 

The corridors are generally wide or at last not overly tight.  There are some forced carries but the more difficult ones occur on par 3s, which give a high 'capper a better chance of pulling something off.

On my most recent round there, I played with 2 guys who are at least 35 handicaps and they both shot north of 110/120 I'm sure, but that had a lot more to do with them just being beginners than it did with the course punishing otherwise passable golf shots.

I think it comes down to which courses have the most forced carries and trash off the sides of the corridors.  Galloway meets the no-parallel fairways test, but not the other I think.

Olympic Lake shouldnt even be in the conversation - I think that course may be an example of one where the mid handicapper has a good chance at closing the gap on a low capper because it's hard for everyone.

[JMEvensky]

Olympic Lake shouldnt even be in the conversation - I think that course may be an example of one where the mid handicapper has a good chance at closing the gap on a low capper because it's hard for everyone.

I'd disagree with this.IMO,Olympic would tend to separate the higher/lower handicaps due to the precision required on a lot of shots.Precision is usually not a high handicap's long suit.

I would argue that the easier the course,the better chance the higher handicap would have in closing the gap.My theory would be that the easier course lessens the chances of an X which is the big difference between higher/lower handicaps-low handicaps rarely make X.This assumes medal scoring.

Of the courses I've played,I'd guess a higher handicap would have trouble at TPC-Stadium and Whistling Straits(X's everywhere).

[Bob_Huntley]

Without a doubt,  forced carries for higher handicap golfers are the real bug-a-boo. Guile and cunning used by the veteran golfer can overcome a lot, yet a carry over water of as little as one hundred and eighty yards wihout a bail-out is an insuperable task.

Think Bethpage Black.

Bob

[Chris_Blakely]

My vote would be for The Shattuck in New Hampshire.

[Tim Leahy]

Koolau, The Ranch, Spyglass and Industry Hills-Ike come to mind. LACC North had the toughest greens I ever played,

[Kalen Braley]

I'd agree with Bobs take on this.

Its the non-maintained areas of the course, a.k.a Junk on the course that can be the deal breaker.  Even a seemingly harmless 100 yard carry shot over tall rough can lead to tons of strokes and/or lost balls.  Wicked greens is the best way to keep high cappers in the game cause they can often figure out how to 2 putt em, even if they 3 putt a couple as well.

[Peter Ferlicca]

My vote goes for the Crosswater course at Sunriver resort, almost every tee shot is a very long carry over junk to a fairway that is surrounded by junk.

[Keith Buntrock]

I will nominate The Bull at Pinehurst Farms next to Kohler.

http://golfthebull.com/aerial2005.htm

[J_ Crisham]

Butler National is hard for good players-impossible for average players. Ask any tour player when they played here. As an everyday course this would just not be fun . Too many forced carries to well bunkered greens that are diabolical.                     Jack

[Jim Thornton]

Tom-

No question that bogey rating provides an objective measure of difficulty, however I am more interested in what people think based on empirical information - what makes a course difficult for one high handicapper may be quite different than another.  As an example, I hit the ball extremely straight but not very high or far.  Tight fairways don't strike fear in my heart but long carries over water, bunkers, etc. that require a long high ball flight cause me problems.

Ryan-

Galloway was difficult for me because of several forced carries and the fact that a small miss on an approach shot to a green can be severely penalized.  For example, consider the par 3 2nd hole, where you can miss the shot by a yard and be dead.


Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Clearly the most punishing course pound for pound is Flying Hills near Reading, PA where close in houses, children, and OB line both sides of most every hole.

Its about 5800 yards and the last time I was there about 15 years ago I fired a solid 113.

[Nick Schaan]

Bethpage Black - in terms of playing to your handicap

I was really surprised how difficult the course was when I played there for the first time in October. Like most Open venues I would have guessed a lot of the difficulty would have been due to the narrow fairways, but on top of that the lack of greens you can actually run the ball into, make it really hard for the average guy. As a +2 I was happy with the 73 I posted from the past Open Plaques, the two guys i played with, a father(probably a 24) and a son (a solid 6-8), neither of them shot with-in 10 shots of their handicap from the white tees and the son hit it fairly solid all day. The bunkers are massive and most average guys can chip and pitch it well enough to save a bogey from the grass, those bunkers no chance. The shallow nature of some of the greens especially 17 or impossible for the average guy, and the elevation changes as well in terms of clubbing and holding uphill shots on holes like 2,4,15. hte holes average guys can make up some ground, shorter par 4's, par 5's are strategically tough, either blind like 6 or tricky like 4. and the par3's are really hard if you miss the greens.

[D_Malley]

jim
i remember playing galloway hole #2 in some really high winds.  i was with two other professionals and we all had to hit 3 irons from about 130 yards.  it was disaster.  my 3 iron ended up short of the front bunker, which is not a good spot.  that hole is a brute with some wind. 

[Jim Thornton]

Just noticed that I made a mistake on my initial list...I meant to say Whisper Rock Lower, not Upper.

[Mike_Cirba]

I also took a pounding at Whisper Rock lower and then got picked in the finger by a jumping cactus reaching for a unplayable ball on the 10th.  I was woozy for the next hour so that's something that doesn't happen everyday.

[Jim Thornton]

Mike Cirba-

The 10th hole on Whisper Rock Lower has to rank in my personal top 10 hardest holes ever played.

The last time I played that hole I literally stood in the fairway and said to myself I don't have anyway to play this hole.  There was no place to hit a layup shot because of the gully, so if you can't hit a towering high 180 shot to that green then you're flat out of luck.  That has to be one of the most severe greens on the golf course.  Absolute death to hit over the green there.


Jim

[Brian Joines]

Of the courses I've played, it would be Wolf Run in Indy. I had a blast on the golf course as an 8 but a high handicapper would really struggle here.  There are lot of very tough shots and tons of places to get into trouble. The stretch from 12-15 can produce some huge scores (or X's).

[Kyle Henderson]

Spanish Bay: Slicers will be spraying tee shots out of bounds all day long. The greens have a lot of severe slopes to that will play havoc with a poor putter.

TPC Sawgrass: Diagonal carries over water on many holes. Missing the green in the wrong position will add a stroke almost every time.

The Ranch: For every conceivable reason, even from the front tees.

The Bridges (San Ramon, CA): see entry for The Ranch

[Jon Spaulding]

Oakland Hills

Bayonet @ Fort Ord - Military version

[John Moore II]

It hasn't been mentioned but I will say that Tobacco Road is a real beast for average players. Same with Tot Hill Farm. Both were ranked in the top 10 of the Golf Digest hardest clubs in America, if you put any stock in those rankings. But I will say both of those courses are very hard. I can certainly agree if anyone were to say they are the two hardest courses in NC. Maybe not the hardest in the US, but certainly up there.

[mike_beene]

Oak Tree has to be up there.

[Bob Harris]

According to the USGA course rating system, the most difficult course is the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  It has the highest course rating and the maximum slope rating of 155.



Tee:   Championship Tees      

   Course Rating    Bogey Rating    Slope
    79.6                      109.2            155

Tee:   Tournament Tees      

   Course Rating    Bogey Rating    Slope
   77.2                      104.0            144

[Dan Herrmann]

Clearly the most punishing course pound for pound is Flying Hills near Reading, PA where close in houses, children, and OB line both sides of most every hole.

Its about 5800 yards and the last time I was there about 15 years ago I fired a solid 113.

Just make sure your homeowners policy is up to date if you ever play here.  I've only seen it from I-176 or PA-10, and it made me tremble!   I think the best play is to take a putter and..  Well, just take a putter and keep it down the middle.

Good choice, Michael!


---------------------

As far as my pick, I'll go with Pete Dye Golf Club in West Virginia.  It's Mr Dye at his most diabolical.  My first glance at 17 green made me look for the rope tow.  It's actually a very cool place, but it did remind this 12 handicapper that he basically stinks