[George Pazin]

Again, that's why I said I don't blame the architect. Believe me, I understand having to make tough choices for your business to survive. And as I also said later, my choice of words was indeed poor, I was trying to be concise and sacrificed clarity, something in retrospect I shouldn't have done. Lately I've been thinking my posts are too wordy, so I have been trying to cut down, but obviously you lose something when you do that.

As for the issue and what it really is, to me, it comes down to taking credit for something you didn't do, so again I fault the others - the owner, the player, and the media for not playing along. If someone is going to play XYZ course because Joe Top Pro's name is listed, why not simply call him a consultant (and I think that some courses do this)? Would someone influenced to play the course go if JTP is listed as a designer, but not as a consultant? Or does everyone simply believe that everyone knows what's really going on?

[Forrest Richardson]

I am not totally condemning professional associations. The opening comment (opening page) uses the Colin Montgomerie situation reported on several years ago as an ice-breaker to the question: Is this good for golf architecture? And, some great points have been raised. Also, some hair has been split on definitions, meanings, exceptions, etc.

My take is that there are obvious "above board, first-rate" associations and professionals who have leaped into design and have done a great job. However, across the board I do feel that incidents such as that of Monty and Dubai is replicated very often, although perhaps never reported or simply ignored because of any number of reasons and justifications.

[paul cowley]

Jeff Brauer stated above;


"My "hint" remarks were directed squarely at TD that I think he should apply to ASGCA, and not any kind of official ASGCA policy. 

And, BTW, every case is individual.  We are proud to have Paul Cowley as a member, even though he applied as an associate of Davis Love III.  Frankly, in a case like that, we wouldn't likely allow DL3 in the group, because we think Paul really does most of his work.  We had Ed Seay and others from Palmer Course Design in before Palmer (who is actually an honorary member, I think) but JN was the first of the Nicklaus company in, and then others followed (Can't recall, but think Cupp and Morrish got in after they left JN)"


Minor point of clarification regarding myself;

Although I have enjoyed a 15 year association with the Love Group, and have represented the Love Group as the 'Design Associate' on many of the courses we have built together, I have always participated as an independent contractor, under my company name......Linksland, Inc.....which is a company I formed 18 yrs ago to essentially provide Land Planning and Golf Design services in the resort/development market.
Linksland Inc. was created to be a separate company from my Design/Build construction company, Cowley and Assoc,... which I started 30 years ago, and still operate for construction and conservation development projects.

[Forrest Richardson]

My God you're old !

[Jim_Kennedy]

.

[paul cowley]

....if the truth be told, I started my first company, Sands and Cowley, 40 years ago when I was 17.....I was part owner of a one ton Ford 12' flatbed dump and a C30 14' flatbed with a Hiab crane mounted behind the cab....before I had my drivers license.   Our specialty was dry masonry bluestone/limestone walls, walks, patios etc.

I feel like I have been in life overtime since I turned 40.

[Forrest Richardson]

I had my Hiab removed. Now I feel better.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think this system of "well-known figure takes credit, minions do all the real work" is nothing exclusive to the golf business, it happens in every industry. This is simply a form of branding. It costs a lot to establish a new brand "Joe Inventor", and no matter how much money you spend, it still takes years and years of hard work to get mainstream awareness for "Joe Inventor".

Whereas "Jack Celebrity" has already put in years and years of hard work himself. He simply charges you a flat fee and you'll get the brand today. It makes more sense in many scenarios. People assume (and rightfully so) that a product with a celebrity's name on it is not your typical run-of-the-mill, neighborhood thing, but something really advanced and special.

It must be, otherwise they couldn't afford to hire Jack Celebrity and Jack himself certainly wouldn't want to de-value his brand by endorsing a so-so ho-hum product.

Ulrich

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

For clarification to this kindred old soul, what courses did you use to apply to ASGCA?  Davis Love courses or others or both?  We might have to put you on triple secret probation!

[Kalen Braley]

In light of KBMs post...

I find it slightly ironic that many of those who exist in this field do so because of rich folks frittering away thier discretionary income in building a private course to attract other people who are also spending thier discretionary income to join a club they will only play a few times per year.

Additionally there are those who spend big $$$ to go play pricey resorts like Kohler and Bandon on corporate junkets or otherwise, or perhaps just cause they have money burning a hole in thier pocket.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,

contrary to popular impression, most courses are both affordable and public.  I think 66% of all courses built have been public for the last 20 years or so.  Its only that we talk about the high end clubs.

I don't think Bandon or Kohler's players profiles are all about corporate outings, but I could be wrong. My guess would be that they get the bulk of their play from middle class, once a few years "buddy trips" that they save and scrimp for.  As always, I don't know and could be wrong.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I can't disagree with that assessment and perhaps I should have added more to my last post.

I think the perception is these lavish resorts and retreats are part of the problem when it comes to alleged punch-drunk folks spending too much time and too much money at leisure as Obama alluded to.  Traveling across the US in private jets, dropping big money on golf, booze, lavish hotels, and whatever else along the way.

Whether perception is reality in this case, I can't say nor do I know, but I  wouldn't be surprised if your average joe on the street would likely see it this way.

Was it AIG who got skewered for holding that retreat out in Cougarville, CA just a few weeks after they got the bail out money?  A sizeable chunk of that money was spent on golf.

[Greg Tallman]

So am I too a fraud if i have the ocassion to play the Monty whilst wearing my Chucks?

[paul cowley]

Paul,

For clarification to this kindred old soul, what courses did you use to apply to ASGCA?  Davis Love courses or others or both?  We might have to put you on triple secret probation!

Both....?por que amigo?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melvyn,
Lighten up Mon, I was only injecting some humor, and there is something to be said for not taking the subject or ourselves too seriously, as noted by your fellow countryman:   

"My definition of an intellectual is someone who can listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the Lone Ranger.”- Billy Connolly

[paul cowley]

Bravo Jim.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

As I said we are all doomed, doomed I tell you.

Carts to the right of me, carts to the left of me, mad men with laser guns firing at the flag, nutters pacing distance from the flag to their balls some 174 paces away – the game is up, the light is fading, the cost is now $1,000 per round to pay the Pro Celebrity 5 minutes design input. The new Golden Age is here, it lines the pockets of the Pro game yet, I have seen no real benefit for the average player.

You tell me to lighten up, Man I’m so light I’m floating. I’m dreaming of becoming a course designer so I can sign away my rights to all my designs.

I am cool and totally focused, calm as I can be when I see money ripping through our game corrupting just about everything its touches, We may be doomed but I’m cool.

Melvyn

PS Did I tell you that we are all doomed, really doomed – well not me as I know of many small and great courses that have and probably will never change because very few can find them. Oh I am a lucky man, but you are doomed – Lighten up never heard the like, Who’s this guy called Jim , Jim what.  I also hear Paul is screwed talking about something he thinks HE understands - think he needs to lighten up - poor deluded guy - where are you taking me why are your lights flashing, do I have to wear this funny jacket, can't see my hands are you sure I will be OK. I am cool I have lighten up. Are we nearly there yet, I want to go home, whats sectioned mean?        

[Neil_Crafter]

Forrest
I am saddened to learn that Michael Graves is ill. I had not heard that before.

[paul cowley]

Melvyn....we're OK....I just liked the William Tell quote.

I think the future may well push more your way than not....something I would welcome as my days [try to] grow simpler.

...plus its good to know you take a drink or two.

[Forrest Richardson]

Ulrich: You saud, "I think this system of "well-known figure takes credit, minions do all the real work" is nothing exclusive to the golf business, it happens in every industry."

In what art (design endeavor) does a similar condition exist? I am not aware of any that approach the "pack of lies", as Muirhead would call it, that golf design endures.

---

Neil: Mr. Graves came down with a very odd form of spinal virus. Literally they had to sever his nerves or he would have lost he use of his arms. As it is he is paralyzed below the waist as I understand the situation. It is very sad, but he was great when I visited him a while ago.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Paul,
I like that quote too. 

Melvyn,
I have to admit something to you, when I read your posts I always hear them as a Billy Connolly monologue. Thanks for keeping me in stitches. 

[Bill_McBride]

Jim

As I said we are all doomed, doomed I tell you.

Carts to the right of me, carts to the left of me, mad men with laser guns firing at the flag, nutters pacing distance from the flag to their balls some 174 paces away – the game is up, the light is fading, the cost is now $1,000 per round to pay the Pro Celebrity 5 minutes design input. The new Golden Age is here, it lines the pockets of the Pro game yet, I have seen no real benefit for the average player.

You tell me to lighten up, Man I’m so light I’m floating. I’m dreaming of becoming a course designer so I can sign away my rights to all my designs.

I am cool and totally focused, calm as I can be when I see money ripping through our game corrupting just about everything its touches, We may be doomed but I’m cool.

Melvyn

PS Did I tell you that we are all doomed, really doomed – well not me as I know of many small and great courses that have and probably will never change because very few can find them. Oh I am a lucky man, but you are doomed – Lighten up never heard the like, Who’s this guy called Jim , Jim what.  I also hear Paul is screwed talking about something he thinks HE understands - think he needs to lighten up - poor deluded guy - where are you taking me why are your lights flashing, do I have to wear this funny jacket, can't see my hands are you sure I will be OK. I am cool I have lighten up. Are we nearly there yet, I want to go home, whats sectioned mean?        

Melvyn, you really make me chuckle, it's hilarious that you think golf is doomed because of all the carts, etc, in America, but you've never come over here to play!

My wife and I walked today and I scored a rare victory in match play in 3:40.  Golf as you love it does exist in America, you  need to come see for yourself!

[Ulrich Mayring]

In what art (design endeavor) does a similar condition exist? I am not aware of any that approach the "pack of lies", as Muirhead would call it, that golf design endures.

Most great artists have not worked by themselves, instead they ran a large workshop with apprentices, who in many cases did all the work and provided today's researchers with endless hours of fun. Go to any fine art museum and you'll find plaques stating "School of...", "Workshop of..." or "Circle of...". Raphael, Rubens, Rembrandt - you name 'em.

It is not different today. Someone like Mark Kostabi even makes a point to not paint anything. All he does is hire promising young painters and sign their works as his own. He even employs "idea people" to come up with themes for "his" paintings.

Quite frankly, I have to ask you: in which industry, art or craft or service, do the "workers" get credit over the brand?

Ulrich

[Mike_Young]

At the end of the day...the evolution of a golf course is more like a symphony from an orchestra and a conductor........and do any of you recall this year where there was some guy, a significant patron who considered himself a conductor.....and the press gave him accolades etc....he went around and conducted several different orchestras.....and they each had a different opinion....none too good....
myself...I don't see the big deal with that little baton.....but supposedly it can take the same musicians and achieve various results based on the abilities of the conductor......same for a golf course.....
In all unfamliar fields we don't know what we don't know....untl one becomes a green chair

[Philip Spogard]

Ulrich:

A lot of businesses give credit to the designer eventhough they design under another 'brand'.

If you take an artisitc brand like 'Georg Jensen' (famous for silverware and jewelry) they give credit to the individual designers of their items. So e.g. a certain piece of silverware might sell under the name of Georg Jensen but it also names the individual designer. Often some of the designers go on to achieve more in their career but collectors can purchase the items they did for e.g. Georg Jensen.

This can be said for almost all interior furniture makers - it is the same system (from the top all the way to IKEA in the other end of the scale).

There is no reason why this couldn't (and shouldn't) be the same in golf. The Georg Jensen is the overall 'quality-stamp'. If e.g. a course was designed by Desmond Muirhead Design - but the individual architect was someone else - and people still liked the course it wouldn't change the fact that it would look good on both Desmond Muirhead and the individual designer.

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