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John Blain

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Whisper Rock
« on: January 22, 2009, 08:12:30 AM »
John Hawkins pens an enjoyable column on Scottdale's Whisper Rock.
I'd be curious if any GCAers have either played or been to the club.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2009/01/gw20090126hawkins?printable=true

If nothing else I think this settles any debate on which club in this country has the strongest playing membership :)

John

Rich Goodale

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 08:26:37 AM »
John

Look at Clint Squiers' "Gary McCord" thread a few spaces below.

Matt_Ward

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 11:35:28 AM »
JPBlain:

I have had the pleasure in being at Whisper Rock and it gets far little attention on this site. First rate original 18-hole design from Lefty and Gary Stephenson and the second 18 by TF is also well done -- arguably equal to or even greater than what TF did at The Estancia Club.

In my mind, a must play for those who want the total desert golf experience.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 11:45:35 AM »
I played it after it was first opened and you could tell it was headed in that direction.   Funny because I sat at a table with McCord and he told me the same story about Gregg making him pay.

Fazio took his course very seriously and spent a great deal of time there from what I understand (frem McCord).   As I have stated before, Bill Coore lives across the street and really wanted that job.  He felt it was the best site he had seen in the desert for a natural type golf course.

As the article states, most of the tour players play the Mickelson course because of the greens and how interesting they are especially with the surrounds.  Furthermore, from the Mickelson tees, it's pretty hard.

www.whisperrock.com

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 02:28:36 PM »
This picture must be of the Fazio course because I don't recall any water being in play on the Mickelson course?




Here are a few other pictures taken from a web site.


Deucie Bies

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 05:24:13 PM »
Lake Nona and Isleworth might have a stronger pro playing membership.  As for total playing membership, based on the article, a case would definitely have to be made for Whisper Rock.  I have heard Secession has a pretty strong playing membership too.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 05:43:13 PM »
Lake Nona and Isleworth might have a stronger pro playing membership.  As for total playing membership, based on the article, a case would definitely have to be made for Whisper Rock.  I have heard Secession has a pretty strong playing membership too.
If my math is correct that means they have 220 players at 6 handicap or below.

Pretty impressive or some suspect 'ego' handicaps ??? ;)
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 06:02:08 PM »
Having seen the handicap board in the clubhouse at Whisper Rock, I'm wondering if Lake Nona and Isleworth post the handicaps of their PGA members (very curious about the index for a certain Mr. Woods)?  As I recall the lowest/highest index on the board last February at WR was Paul Casey at +5.5 (Baddeley and I think Geoff Ogilvy were close behind, both +5 or better).  Billy Mayfair was the Club Champ last year, but over the years they've had non-PGA players win it.

Matt_Ward

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 08:16:31 PM »
It's hard for me to fathom why Whisper Rock doesn't get more acclaim -- especially on the design side.

So much of the fanfare -- rightful I might add -- is tied to the make-up of the club's roster of members.

The Mickelson / Stephenson original 18 is easily a top five layout in all of AZ and that's saying plenty from the ones I have played over the years.

The TF design is also vastly underrated and likely gets little attention because so many people take the opinion that The Estancia Club is still the area's top TF layout.

If there were ever a course that would benefit most from say a small but still noteworthy event it's Whisper Rock.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 08:18:23 PM »
Rick Wesselman, who worked with me for a few years, was with Fazio and provided lots of the on-site work. I have it on good authority that it was a great site and seems to have lived up to that reputation.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Peter Wagner

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 08:49:27 PM »
It's hard for me to fathom why Whisper Rock doesn't get more acclaim -- especially on the design side.


If there were ever a course that would benefit most from say a small but still noteworthy event it's Whisper Rock.

Matt,

A good friend of mine is a member of Whisper Rock as well as my home club.  I've talked with him about bringing more attention to WR and he says they want just the opposite.  WR enjoys being under the radar.  He claims they couldn't care less about rankings and pro tourneys etc etc.

He's begged me to come over and play WR but that would mean leaving my 10 mile bubble so it hasn't happened yet.  Go figure.

- Peter
 

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 08:56:48 PM »
My suspicion is that the club aspires to an ultra private venue, dis-ing course evaluators and pretty much not wanting much publicity. Now...with the recent economy and the reality of a few members requesting exit papers, this may indeed change.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim Thornton

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 12:21:22 PM »
I have had the good fortune to play Whisper Rock several times in past few years.

A few comments about the golf courses and the overall atmosphere:

The Lower Course (designed by Mickelson) is extremely difficult, and I would venture that anyone with a handicap above single digits will struggle mightily - a few long carries, extremely quick greens (13), very severe around the greens if you miss, and the necessity to hit high soft shots to the greens in order to hold them.  The areas around the greens really reflect Phil's influence - you better be able to hit a high, spinning flop shot off an extremely tight lie or you're going to have a long day.  That course is just too difficult for me, although it's easy to see why the many tour pros who belong there like the Lower Course so much - it's maintained in PGA tournament conditions at all times and can really test the abilities of good players.

The Upper Course (Tom Fazio) is by far the most scenic of the two courses as it meanders up into the mountains - the short par 4 13th which is pictured on the website is a stunning hole visually and a lot of fun to play.  It requires a very precise pitch to a small green - miss the green long by 3 yards and you're in the mountain.  The conditioning of the upper course is ever bit the equal of the Lower Course, with extremely quick greens and immaculate fairways and rough.  For me, the Upper Course offers more options to play the holes for higher handicap players as there are several holes where you can run the ball onto the green.  There are also very few holes with a long forced carry off the tee.

If I were playing 10 rounds at WR, I would play 8 Upper and 2 Lower.

A quick anecdote about WR that I think sums up the atmosphere - 2 years ago I played in the Member Guest Tournament and Fred Couples was a participant as a guest of a member.  His handicap for the tournament was +5 and his team finished middle of the pack in their flight.  The interesting thing for me to observe was how we was treated by the staff and tournament participants (both members and guests) - he was treated just like any other participant and was not doted on whatsoever.  In the 3 days, I don't recall a single incident of someone asking for an autograph, asking to take a picture, etc. - not one single time.  Quite the contrary, he seemed to blend in perfectly and was just hanging out with his buddies, drinking a beer and watching sports on TV. 

Because there are so many PGA pros at WR, it's very common to see them when you're on the property, and it's always the same - they just blend in and are treated just like everybody else.  I was having lunch one day and Phil Mickelson was at the table next to me and absolutely nobody took notice of him being there. On another occasion, I was hitting shots out of a practice bunker and there was another player in the bunker also.  He introduced himself and said, "Hi, I'm Geoff" as if I would have no idea who he was even though he was the reigning US Open Champion at that time.  The nicest, most humble guy you will ever meet.

One final comment - the locker room staff, headed by Mike Marranzino, is phenomenol.  I am there only once per year, and he not only remembers my name, but what I like to drink.  By the way, all the stories about the famous chocolate milkshakes are true - they're devastating.  I also like that everyone at WR - members, staff, professionals, caddies - are on a first name basis.  It just has a very relaxed vibe that is very appealing - just like hanging out with a bunch of buddies you've known a long time.  Hence the phrase that Phil Mickelson inscribed on the Masters Flag that hangs in the WR trophy case "To the boys of WR, it's all about the hang."

Jim

Matt_Ward

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 02:59:36 PM »
Jim:

Great story and insights on the happening within WR.

Of all the 36-hole facilities I have played I would put it in there among the best of the best.

In my mind, Winged Foot has the edge but that's mainly because of its long time role in hosting major events.

If WR should opt not to host such events -- whether they be big or small -- it still merits an even higher acclaim than it gets now.

I like the original Lower course and even though you highlighted its demands it's playable when people understand their limitations and play from the appropriate tee boxes. One of the dimensions I liked about the course was how it "appeared" to play tougher from the tee boxes than it actually is -- getting into the head of players is an element that is often underplayed by many.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2009, 03:50:43 PM »
I have to agree with all here, I think its one of the best in Arizona and would place it in my personal top 100.   The only downside is it may be too difficult for the average guy, middle to high handicaper.   After I played it I suggested another panelist play it who flew in from LA and played it with his wife.   I'm sure he played the right tee, he's mid 60's and a good 10 handicap but he thought it was just way too difficult.

I don't buy the exclusive angle.  With that many members and all the high profile pros you can't be exclusive.  They were very accomidating to panelists a few years ago when the lower was up for best new and couldn't have been nicer.   When they didn't even make top 10 for best new I know they where very disappointed and maybe had a change of heart allowing panelists to play?   

I believe at least one if not both courses are rated on GolfWeeks best modern list?

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2009, 03:54:32 PM »
My round last year was with a GD rater, and he had no problem getting on, tho we did play with a member. . .

Jim Thornton

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2009, 03:56:34 PM »
Matt-

WR is indeed one of the best 36 hole facilities I've seen.

Good point on the "psych out" factor of the Lower Course off the tee...aside from the forced carries though, the big killer for me is how challenging shots around the greens are.  The bunkers are deep, the greens surrounds are cut almost at green height, and the greens themselves are extremely firm and extremely fast.  If I get the list bit jitsy on those shots, I could shoot a million on that golf course.

Have you seen the new bunk houses by the first tee on the Upper?  Great facilities with four bedrooms per bunk house and a really cool patio with a fire pit.  We were there during the Super Bowl last year and we sat out on the patio at night by the fire pit, smoking cigars, drinking scotch, and listening to the howl of the coyotes against a brilliant night sky.  Doesn't get much better than that.


Jim

Matt_Ward

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2009, 04:41:49 PM »
Joel, et al:

When I hear the common litany of select people saying WR is too difficult -- then what would they say about Desert Forest or any other layouts of that ilk in the greater Valley area.

I had the opportunity to play 36 holes on the Lower and a return visit for 18 on the Upper. They are both playable but if you have golfers who can't hit the Kansas stateline and they happen to be standing on the OK border then I don't what course will be deemed playable.

The thing about the Lower that really excites me is how the desert just co-exists with the layout -- it's not superimposed as you often see with others. Like I said before the "pysche" out factor is alive and well. If you execute and trust your instincts you can get around quite well.

Jim, you are right about the green surrounds -- you need to have a solid short game but I see nothing wrong with that. Candidly, too many courses in the desert are green-lite when it comes to having complex targets that are quite discerning on what's accepted and what's not.

Like I said before -- if you come to AZ and you never play WR then your golf portfolio is certainly lacking. It is thaaat good in my mind.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2009, 04:57:14 PM »
Aren't the numbers enough to ascertain the difficulty?

Lower:
http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/courseTeeInfo.aspx?assocID=324&crsCourseID=-141

Upper:
http://63.240.106.223/natcrsrating/courseTeeInfo.aspx?assocID=324&crsCourseID=-319

Interesting in that they are pretty close to each other.. and neither seems crazy hard to me....

One great thing uncovered by this, however - the USGA publishes BOGEY RATINGS.... I did not know that... my day is made.  Man I've been crusading for that for years... this is a start.. now if we get such on scorecards and marketing instead of slope, we will really have something.

TH

Andy Troeger

Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 09:44:01 PM »
My round last year was with a GD rater, and he had no problem getting on, tho we did play with a member. . .

My understanding is that raters may access the course the same was as anyone else--as the guest of a member. If they are there they are treated very well (as it would appear, is everyone else).

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2009, 11:12:53 PM »
I will receive much opprobrium for this, but why on earth would a club such as this, give credence to raters?

I have had experience with raters at my club and find their advances for a free ride absolutely disgusting.

Bob

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2009, 02:40:06 AM »
I will receive much opprobrium for this, but why on earth would a club such as this, give credence to raters?

I have had experience with raters at my club and find their advances for a free ride absolutely disgusting.

Bob

Bob,

I think clubs such as Whisper Rock are more concerned about the "rankings" than they would lead you to believe, especially in an economy like this....and there is nothing wrong with that...

Unfortunately, it sounds like you have had some negative experiences w/ "raters" (please expound).  To that I would say: don't cast a general opinion on a group of individuals from limited experience.  From my experience, raters have been truly class act and have never stepped beyond the bounderies of an interested party making an opinion on a golf course (which is exactly what their "job description" is). 

I haven't seen a Rater have a problem w/ paying a fee to rate a course, and hopefully I can continue to report that...

Stereotyping is never a good thing. 

Cheers,

George Freeman
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2009, 11:08:25 AM »
I will receive much opprobrium for this, but why on earth would a club such as this, give credence to raters?

I have had experience with raters at my club and find their advances for a free ride absolutely disgusting.

Bob

Bob,

I think clubs such as Whisper Rock are more concerned about the "rankings" than they would lead you to believe, especially in an economy like this....and there is nothing wrong with that...

Unfortunately, it sounds like you have had some negative experiences w/ "raters" (please expound).  To that I would say: don't cast a general opinion on a group of individuals from limited experience.  From my experience, raters have been truly class act and have never stepped beyond the bounderies of an interested party making an opinion on a golf course (which is exactly what their "job description" is). 

I haven't seen a Rater have a problem w/ paying a fee to rate a course, and hopefully I can continue to report that...

Stereotyping is never a good thing. 

Cheers,

George Freeman



George,

First, let me say that I have a number of friends on this site who are raters and take their task seriously, on the other hand I stand by what I wrote.

Secondly, you make an observation about my limited experience in these matters; how on earth do you know what my experince has been. If you want examples IM me, I won't do it on a public forum.

Bob

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 02:57:03 PM »
I will receive much opprobrium for this, but why on earth would a club such as this, give credence to raters?

I have had experience with raters at my club and find their advances for a free ride absolutely disgusting.

Bob

If that is the case, give their names to Topsy Siderowf at GD.  They do not want their panelists to have that kind of reputation. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Whisper Rock
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2009, 08:23:51 PM »
The comments about the club not directing more attention toward its architect and architecture are silly.  Who's more well known, Gary Stephenson or Gary McCord?

They don't care about ratings because their membership is the sexier story for everyone to hear.  They most certainly DO care about their reputation and they are not trying too hard to lay low ... or they would ask McCord to stop talking about the place, like Deepdale asks George Zahringer not to talk about it.