Barona vs Apache Stronghold

[Matt_Ward]

Dan and Tommy:

Just shows what different people can see. AS is clearly in my mind the better of the two courses. Does it win six-up. No. But does Barona have a 4-up advantage over AS. Also -- no!

Dan, with all due respect, please send me in New Jersey the water you're drinking if you think Talking Stick is beyond AS. Ditto -- if you think Pac Dunes is "easy for the expert player."
 
The Pac Dunes layout is inventive and absorbing -- you must constantly know how to position your shots and the integration of the air and ground games is definitely present and for that the architect deserves high praise. ou see much of that in AS as well. For what it's worth -- I am a low handicap golfer and hit the ball a decent ways off the tee. Although Pac isn't overly long it does make you shape shots throughout the round. I enjoy difficult courses as much as the next guy but let's not confuse outright difficulty, which was not Doak's focus, with crafting superior challenges for the greatest range of players. I believe Pac Dunes and AS does that in spades.

Hope this helps ...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Dan,
I don't know where you live and play your tournament golf, but if you think AS is easy you should move to AZ where you could win all the AGA tournaments. They took the AZ pub links to AS in 2001 and it demolished the field (remember the USGA pub links champion is from AZ). Guess we didn't catch it on an easy day? I played from the tips with a friend who just returned from the USGA open sectional qualifier where I caddied for him. In the local qualifier he drove a 360 yd par 4, at AS #7 he hit driver; you must be very, very long.

[JakaB]

Tom "aw shucks" Huckaby,

If NGLA doesn't beat Barona at least 10 up I will iron your shirt at the next outing with a bic and a mallet head putter.

[George Pazin]

Dan Belden -

Thanks for the differing opinion - it's always nice to hear someone differ & actually spell out the reason, not just chalk it up to bashing or bias.

The reason you couldn't modify your post is that you're currently a guest. Should you choose to register, you will be able to modify future posts.

Just out of curiosity, would you mind sharing what you shot at the "easy" Doak tracks versus the more challenging Barona?  

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
What Doak scores do you give these two coursesbbbbbbbbb?
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

Sorry about the bbbbbbb?  Don't know what happened?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Where the hell have you been that you lost your usual eloquence??

I owe you a phone call.  Glad to hear you enjoyed Twisted Dune, and I thought your subsequent questions about course aesthetics were thought-provoking, although I never had time to respond.  

[Mark_Fine]

Hope I didn't offend anyone!  I'm not one to succumb to popular opinion if I see something a little differently.  

Yes you do owe me a phone call.  I've had a number of people comment privately to me about the asthetics observations.  The comments were quite interesting.

I've been traveling and have not had time to post or even scan the site for weeksbb.

Once again, so many courses to see, so little time  

[Slag_Bandoon]

Both courses are a treasure. If you go to Phoenix, Apache Stronghold is a must play golf course. If you go to San Diego, Barona Creek is a must play golf course.  I cannot even imagine going back to these towns and NOT playing each.  

  If they were sister courses at a 36 hole complex, my heart goes with Apache as it takes you into the isolation of the desert hills. They may as well be sand dunes with cacti.  Most every hole is like stepping through Dorothy's threshold to colorful Oz.   It is geologically stunning at AS and I was absolutely lost in appreciation.  It is as stunning a presentation of its environment as Pacific Dunes is of its.

  I am crazy about Barona Creek and cannot bring myself to be cynical about it's minor foibles.  It is wonderfully beautiful in presentation and strategy.  It is as great a course as the Barona Nation, or even the American Nation, could hope for and they (we) should be proud of its uniqueness and grandeur.  Sadly, and this is ONLY the FAULT OF ME, not the designer or owners' vision, BC is too proper for me to call these two courses equals.  It has everything a golfer of skill and taste would appreciate but Apache Stronghold has more wrinkles, more inherent beauty of imperfection, and, for me, a deeper personal experience.

  I think Mr. MacKenzie would love both for each of their strengths.  I'd love to be there to tee it up for him. White tees, of course.

 
  

[Dan Belden]

  George:

     I don't know if it is fair to criticize Pacific Dunes on a difficulty factor.  I know Doak was trying to build a course to compliment the much more difficult Bandon Dunes.  The resort was nice enough to let me play both courses from all the way back. If anything, and this thread is not about PD, I would argue that 4 par 3,s on one nine, no matter how good they are, is just too many.  Unfortunatley I had the distinction of playing both courses on the 11th of September.  I shot 70 from the tips at PD and 78 from the tips at Bandon.  The most memorable shot was driver, 2 iron to the great 13th.  The wind was such that I was able to reach 18 with a driver and a two iron as well.  I simply felt that PD was a little more vunerable to scoring then I would have prefered.  I also feel the same way about AS.  
   One of my favorite aspects of architecture is shot values.  My two favorite courses are Pine Valley and Shinnecock. Both courses present strategy and offer types of shots that are hard to find anywhere else.  The 5th at AS is a great hole.  It is strikingly similar to the 3rd at Shinnecock.  But PV and SH never let up.  AS and PD do.  Does that mean the courses I prefer are better, absolutley not. But I have as much of a right to my opinion as anyone else.  I feel the same way about Barona.  It is more fun for me to play BArona than AS, period.  For me it is not that close.  I like Talking Stick better.  Does that mean that I don't want to play AS again.  Absolutely not.  I am just glad that we have all three.  
     I was very suprised to learn that someone could say that AS is that much better than Barona.  I don't see it.  If someone wants to say it is a little better, I wouldn't argue it, because to each his own.  I think that Barona is a little better than AS.  
 I don't think Doak gets it yet, for the best way to challenge the best players.  Crenshaw and Core get it.  Eckenrode gets it.  Again does that mean that they are better than Doak, obvioulsy not because most people would disagree with me.  Which is fine because that is what discussion groups are for.  
                                                          Dan Belden
  

[Dan Belden]

 George:

    I forgot my scores at AS.  I was 5 or 6 under for both rounds,but can't remebere what I shot in the morning and afternoon.  
   I am going back there next month and am really looking forward to it.  
  On the Doak scale I think they(AS and BArona) are both 8's
                                                  Dan Belden

[Dan Belden]

Don:

    The course conditions the day I played As were good for scoring, and any course under the right conditons can play extremely difficlut.  That being said I don't think that AS is an overly difficlut golf course.    I am also somewhat familiar with AZ golf as I played my college golf for the University of Arizona. Had the distinct misfortune of running in to Todd Eckenrode there, we chased him off to UCSB though after a couple of years.    Dan  

[David Kelly]

>>>>Unfortunatley I had the distinction of playing both courses on the 11th of September.<<<<

To each his own but playing 36 holes of golf on September 11, 2001 would have been the last thing in the world that I would have done. Maybe thats one reason I am not shooting 5 or 6 under.

[Mark_Fine]

Dan,
Giving a course a Doak 8 (at least on my scale) puts it in the top 50 courses in the country!  How many courses have you seen to put these courses in that elite group?  Maybe your scale goes to 12 or 13  
Mark

[THuckaby2]

Tom "aw shucks" Huckaby,

If NGLA doesn't beat Barona at least 10 up I will iron your shirt at the next outing with a bic and a mallet head putter.

Darn it JakaB, you do ask for the tough answers.  Remember some of the conversations we had that round at Olympic with Gib & Neal?  

Ok, I just did it really quickly on a scratch pad and well, you were right.  Of course NGLA is 4up after 4 against almost any course on earth, so that helped get the game going in its favor.  But it did get worse for Barona... 8 down after 8, a gracious tie on 9, then I gave up when I gave wins to NGLA on 10 and 11.

My exaggerations do get me in trouble far too often - thanks!

TH

[Dan Belden]

Mark:

      Courses I have played.
Pine Valley( almost every year since I was 19, I am 33 now)
Shinnecock
National
Seminole
Pebble
Pinehurst #2
Aronomick
Merion
Inverness
Scioto
Camargo
Oakmont
Royal county down
BAllybunion
Lahynch
Royal Portrush.
Murifield Village, to name a few.
    I think that I have played enough courses on Doaks list to have an idea on how it works.  I thought that an 8 meant if you are in the State or nearby you need to check these courses out.  Maybe we could move them down a noch to 7 and  a half, but they certainly seem to merit fairly lofty status from what I have seen on this web site.  My Uncle from Ohio and a member at Pine Valley for 30 years felt that Barona was well worth the 2 hour drive from Palm Desert.
  I have more references if you need them.  I also grew up and am a member of a Goflweek top 100 Donald Ross course built in 1922.  If you live in my area or are going to be in Ohio give me a call and we will go play.  Dan Belden

[Tom Doak]

Dan Belden:

If you want difficulty, go see Black Forest or Stonewall.

Pacific Dunes and Apache Stronghold are both resorts, and we didn't want to make them so tough that play would be slow.  The wind at Pacific Dunes in the summer makes it plenty difficult -- I'll assume you didn't shoot that 70 on a summer afternoon with the wind blowing thirty m.p.h.

And you're the first person so far to say Apache Stronghold wasn't hard enough from the back tees.

I suspect you're a good driver of the golf ball, and what you're really saying is you wish my courses were tighter off the tee.  If not, I'd like to understand.

[Dan Belden]

   Dear Tom Doak:

    I apologize for not getting back to you earlier.  I have been on the road and unfortunately have had other things on my mind.  
    As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think that it is fair to judge Pacific Dunes from any kind of difficulty standpoint.  The course is wonderfully playable and extremely enjoyable.  I was fortunate enough to catch it on a windy day, and thoroughly enjoyed playing shots that on most courses in the US that you don't get to play.  In particluar a hooded 7 iron to the 11th to six feet was alot of fun.  I do have a question for you about the 4th.  I was suprised that it had one of the narrowest fairways on the course, especially where it bottlenecked by the bunker.  I am curious about you intentions for strategy on this hole.
   Answering your question ,I prefer, and this is subjective to me, not narrower of the tee, but more information.  I definitley prefer the stepped bunker approach that is more prevelant at courses like Barona and Talking stick.  Two of my favorite holes in golf are the 14th and 16th at Shinnecock. I love seeing moverment thru bunkers.  Can I fly this bunker, do I need to avoid this bunker, how close do I need to be to this bunker for a good angle into the green. Two holes in particular at Apache leave me with a blank.  The 10th and the 16th.  To each his own.  I also think that the first tee shot is a little bland.  On the whole I think the course is great, and I can't wait to go back. My biggest objection was a poster trying to say that it was infinitley better than Barona, with this I strongly disagree, and think that the poster knows better as well.  I look forward to someday playing some of your other courses, and am very glad that you are building the courses that you are.   Dan Belden.

[Joel_Stewart]

Can anyone compare Apache Stronghold to Whisper Rock?

[Matt_Cohn]

I thought I'd put in a few comments here, as I played Apache Stronghold on 5/23.

When I try that match-play thing, Apache comes out anywhere from 2-4 up over Barona.

The design at Apache is just really good. It's very easy to tell that an exceptionally talented architect was involved.

The facilities, conditioning, and service at Apache don't make you feel like you're at a special place. I know it's all about the golf...but it's fun driving into a course and knowing from the first minute that I'm about to have a memorable experience. (About the conditioning - the tees and greens were fine, but the fairways and other areas had some trouble.)

The only places I think the course could have been stronger - harder at least - are the downwind holes. They are mostly downhill too, in thin air, on hard ground. There's almost no way to make them really long enough. Three of these holes are par-5's of 552, 614, and 510. I hit 7, 2, and 9 irons on or over those greens (my normal average is 275 off the tee). But what can you do? Make them 650 or 700 yards?

Also #18 - it's 458, but I hit driver over that middle bunker and had 75 yards in. Again, what can you do? Make it a 525 yard par-4?

The truth is, it's still a brilliant course, and those are still great holes - it's only when you compare them to par that they are too short for longer hitters. Overall, the people who visit this website will absolutely love Apache. People who have never heard of or don't understand this website might want to stick to the lush grass and posh hotels of Scottsdale.

As for the two other courses I played on my way from Oklahoma to San Diego:

The Raven in Phoenix, as I mentioned, is the opposite of Apache - pleasant, not brilliant, sculpted from flat land, but perfectly maintained, with a nice clubhouse and some of the best service anywhere. A lot of people love this course, but I'm not sure GCA'ers will find it their very favorite. As a pretty, enjoyable place to play golf though, it's nice.

Paa-Ko Ridge in Albuquerque is a must-play for everyone. I just love this course, and the scenery is so awesome that I am stunned by it every time I go there. It's not only one of my favorite courses, but one of my favorite places to be.

http://students.ou.edu/C/Matthew.A.Cohn-1/courses/pk/pk.html

It really looks that good, and it is that good! Go there!

That's all for now! Please post if you have any questions, especially on Paa-Ko, as Apache has been covered pretty well here.

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

How does Paa-Ko stack up vs Apache Stronghold? In particular, how are the greensites at Paa-Ko? I've seen Ken Dye's work at Pinon Hills and the greens there are a bit over the top IMO--too much multi tiering.  What else about Paa-Ko's design makes it a winner for you?

All The Best,  

[Matt_Cohn]

Apache comes out 1 or 2 up against Paa-Ko, architecturally. I felt this difference came in the par-3's. Paa-Ko's par-3's have a "wow" factor, but I just felt like Apache's par-3's were a little better holes overall.

The greens at Paa-Ko are really good, and less extreme than Apache's. Paa-Ko has mostly tiers, and slopes, while Apache's greens are more rolling. I guess I'd say that Apache has more old-style greens, and Paa-Ko has more modern style greens. I liked what Dye and Doak did at each course with the greens.

Paa-Ko just feels like a special place. It starts just driving to the course. At Apache, you get on 70 and wonder "Umm, where am I going?" At Paa-Ko, you get on 14 and wonder "Wow, where am I going?!" By the time you park your car at Paa-Ko, you know you're going to have a special day...you're out there in nature with these enormous, towering mountains around you, and it's just beautiful and peaceful. By the time you get to the pro shop you can see a few holes, and everything is green and perfect...it pulls at you!

Then you start playing, and everything is just so spectacular, and there are some really fun holes too. If you looked at my website, or Paa-Ko's, it's easy to see - it's just an amazing place. Of the courses I've seen, only The Rim in Arizona has a better setting for golf that isn't on a body of water.

I guess to sum it up, Apache probably has better architecture by a little bit. But the sense of anticipation, the amazing beauty, and just the simple fun of playing at Paa-Ko are matched by very few places that I've ever been to.

How much do I look forward to playing Paa-Ko? Last week, the night before I was to play Paa-Ko, I had car trouble, and had to get my car towed near Sayre, Oklahoma. There were no hotels there, so I slept in my car, for a total of about 3 hours. Common sense said that I would not be playing golf that afternoon. But this was Paa-Ko Ridge...after getting my car checked, I drove 450 miles on 3 hours sleep and teed off at 4:00 that afternoon. Totally worth it    

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Thanks for the info re Paa-Ko. I had a sense that there's a lot of "wow" there but if in your opinion it's that close to Apache architecturally that's pretty strong.

PS Glad you didnt crash your car hurtling to Paa-Ko on 3 hrs sleep. Driving out here in the West is sure fun.  

[Dan_Belden]

Played AS again this weekend with a good group of players.  A budy of mine who is a scratch player in the Phoenix area, my friend Mike Emery who is 3 time Nike tour, Buy.com player, and Mike Tankersly a former Tenessee Amateur champ..  I
   It was windy, the course was playing hard and fast, but unfortunately it took 5 and half plus hours to play.  
   Again my oppinion of the course has not changed. Under the conditions we played it, it must have been extremely difficult for the average player, the evidence of that being that it took us so long to play.  All the guys in my group really enjoyed it.  It was my suggestion to play, and it was a hit.  
   The criticism were few, but the same as my objections.  The tee shot on the 7th which really requires a slice to stay in the fairway.  Tee shot on the 10th.  The guys thought a little more elevation to the back tee would help solve the problem.  No-one found it overly difficult, with the exception of 3, we all bogeyd it.  Everyone loved the par 3s, and really appreciated the architecture that went into the greens.  Oddly enough some of the greens reminded them of my home course, Brookside CC in Canton,Oh.  
  One final note, we all hit Sand or L wedge into 18.  It seems there are a few holes out there, this being one them, that play extremely difficult for the average player, but are easy for the expert player.  I think if Doak has a weakness, this is it.

[Jack_Wilson]

Speaking of Brookside, can you please give me a little info on the course.
Thanks