Barona vs Apache Stronghold

[Don_Mahaffey]

While Barona is still fresh in my mind I thought it would be a good idea to compare these two courses. It would appear that the architects had similar conditions to work with, i.e. little or no permitting, few environmental conditions, and large sites with few hurdles to interfere with routing. I'm assuming a lot here so Tom or Todd please straighten me out if I'm off base.

Hole # 1
Both start out with an uphill par 5, from the back Barona can be reached and I don't think many are going to reach Apache in two. Although I think Apache has a better greens complex I like Barona better simply because I like the way it looks. The tree is strategic and definitely impacts any decisions with laying up while at Apache the second doesn't hold much interest.
Barona 1 up.

#2
Apache in a landslide. A great hole with decisions off the tee and a very natural hazard left of the green. One of my favorite holes. Barona straight up the hill and another green where the back contours come in to play.
All square

#3
Two long par 3s. Probably going against conventional wisdom here but I like Apache. A very natural green site and a wicked green. Both greens can be held with a long iron off the left collar. Really very even, but the green at Apache has more character.
Apache 1 up

#4
Tough, tough decision. Barona is a great hole off the tee, your rewarded by taking the more dangerous route down the left, but again the green has a contour on the left to protect the wayward shot. Apache also rewards the bold with a shorter shot, but if you hit it too good you can end up with a wicked lie in the natural grassed contours of the wash below the green. The approach at Apache is second to none with the green framed by the hills and the sky as a background. I love the tee shot at Barona and the second at Apache. It's a push.
Apache still 1 up.

#5
A long par 4 at Apache and a medium length uphill 4 at Barona. I like the cross bunker at Barona, but another green with a bunker in front and a backstop behind the green. Apache is wide open off the tee, but a severe, controversial green. Controversy and uniqueness wins out.
Apache 2 up

#6
A drivable par 4 at Apache and a reachable par 5 at Barona. Both reward bold play and punish over aggressive drives. I like Barona.
Apache 1 up

#7
Although I like the way the ridge at Apache juts out into the fairway and the strategic way the hole bends around the wash on the right, I absolutely love the greens complex at the short 7th at Barona.
All square

#8
I'm not a huge fan of either hole, another par 5 at Apache where the second is an afterthought unless your the longest of hitters and even though the hole at Barona is pretty, the bunker in front and backstop in back doesn't get my juices flowing. A push.
All square

#9
The green at Apache wins this one. Neither hole is overly spectacular both work and both reward solid play. But I love the contours at Apache.
Apache 1 up

#10
Easy one here. Apache in a landslide.
Apache 2 up

#11
Two very similar holes, well bunkered short par 3s. Both good holes and very difficult to chose one, so I wont. A push.
Apache still 2 up.

#12
I'm not sure how to play Barona, but I like that uncertainty. I'm not so sure an iron off the tee just short of the right bunker isn't the play, I know busting it off the tee down by the green is not, unless you can hit it really far. Apache calls for a draw off the tee and a standard approach. I'm going with Barona.
Apache 1 up

#13
Tough call here. Apache has a huge bunker covered hill that needs to be hit over or faded around and then a green that calls for a draw. Barona is a reachable par 5 that calls for a fade off the tee and then a draw into the green if your going for it. A very good split fairway lay up area. Apache is a very good hole, but I like Barona.
All square

#14
Apache has the redan and Barona has a short uphill par 4. I like barona...but again, bunker in front and slope in back. The redan at Apache is a solid hole and I like it a little better.
Apache 1 up

#15
My favorite par 5 at Apache. I love the green and the natural contours to the right of it. A great greens complex.
Apache 2 up

#16
The controversial hole at Barona. A short to medium length par 3 where no one can keep it on the green, except I saw two guys in my groups do it. I love controversy and the 16th at Apache is my least favorite hole on the course.
Apache 1 up

#17
The par 5 at Barona is very similar to the earlier one. Similar split fairway in the lay up area, very similar. The 17th at Apache is a long par 3 with another outstanding green. I like both holes, but I like Apache better.
Apache 2 up

# 18
The finishing holes at both courses are good, not great. The bunker in the fairway at Apache is nice, but it's another tee ball that calls for a fade and this time the green can't carry the hole. At Barona I'm not sure I like all the water, but its a good hole and the bunker short of the green is not nearly as close to the green as it seems. I like Barona.
Apache finishes 1 up.

Ultimately, I really like both courses and I could play either one a lot. Apache, IMHO, has better greens, but Barona, again IMHO, is a better course from the tee.  

[TEPaul]

Don:

That's funny--as I was reading through your post and hadn't even gotten off the front nine, it seemed to me the feeling you got from these two courses was the green-ends at Apache were better but the tee-ends at Barona were better and when I got to the end--sure enough that's just how you summed it up!

[THuckaby2]

Muy interesante....

And damn Don, I too was describing Barona as a GREAT tee-shot course... but then again, I dug the greens and green surrounds also....

This all means that my oft-stated I HAVE TO SEE APACHE STRONGHOLD is just getting louder and louder.  Now how to cook up a trip to AZ that the wife won't kill me for... hmmm... how's the weather in early October?

TH

[THuckaby2]

shivas my man, Blackwolf Run is on the some day agenda and damn I gotta make it happen.... But I have an October trip with my yahoo college buds being cooked up and BW might be too much for a short weekend at this point in my marital existence.  But who knows....

Sounds damn good in any case.

TH

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Don.  Let me just say that I haven't seen Apache, so I can't be critical of any of your comments really.  Interesting observations, though.

The part I found most interesting is #8 and #14, only because those are usually in most everyone's top 4 or 5 holes on the course.  Again, I have no idea what they're going against though.  A Doak-redan is a potent combo, I'll admit.  #14 is probably the most picked as "favorite", though.  Did you make triple bogey???

I look forward to seeing Apache someday soon, then we'll chat.

[JakaB]

Don,

I really enjoyed number eight at Barona...being a fader I hit 7 wood the first day closer that 7 iron the next...nice variety for the same hole.

My question in comparing the courses would be does Apache have even the slightest consideration for walkers.

[Doug Wright]

TH,

Having just had the pleasure of visiting Apache Stronghold last week let me tell you that you'll not be disappointed! Some vintage Doak green complexes at AS for sure, e.g #1,3,4,9,14, 15 and 17. You'll see some of the same fun stuff around the greens as at Pacific Dunes. For Barona to hang with AS in Don's opinion Barona must be quite strong--sorry I missed it...

In particular, Barona #13 must be a helluva hole, because AS #13 is as strong a par 4 as one could find--a compelling tee shot over or around a bunker laden hill ("Bunker Hill?") followed by a long draw aound another hill to a fine green.

All The Best,

[Doug Wright]

Jaka,

AS is walkable--there are paths from greens to tees on many holes that shorten the walk considerably, assuming you avoid the rattlers and Gila Monsters--and many of the tees are close to the preceding greens. A couple of long uphill slogs make it tough though, esp 13 to 14 and 17 to 18...

All The Best,

[THuckaby2]

Doug - now I am really getting excited re Apache!  But damn, I've heard a lot about it already - this is just getting the wheels turning again.

Note that #13 at Barona is one GREAT golf hole, well described by Don.  Reachable yes, but at great peril... and you have to think carefully through both shots.  Played as a 3 shotter the 3rd becomes quite problematic also, especially to the HELLACIOUS back left pin we had Saturday.  Fun green, little bowl back left is genius.

TH

[JakaB]

Lou Duran eagled 13 on me proving once again that the great state of Texas produces great golfers despite the poor quality of its playing avenues.  (I don't do smilies)

[Matt_Ward]

Played both courses last year and although I really enjoy Barona I see the margin between the two courses as being a bit wider than Don states.

I would give AS the edge on holes #7 (although the green at Barona is indeed neat!) #12 and #18 and I would not concede the thought Barona is a "better" course from the tee -- a good example being the demands you face on #7 at AS, among others. I thoroughly enjoyed Barona but see AS being a clear winner.

Would be most interested to see what numbers on the Doak scale people would give both courses?

P.S. There should be a contest to find out how many people have actually hit and STAYED on the 16th green at Barona. Playing downwind and with the pin cut far right I know you can count on one hand the number of players who succeed in doing it. Superb hole for short iron control ...

[THuckaby2]

JakaB - Lou is TOUGH - way to hang in there.

And Lou, nice EAGLE!  Damn, first I heard of that... way to go!

Matt W:  I don't have the Doak scale ingrained like everyone else here, and my copy of Confidential Guide is at home.  If someone could send me how those numbers work, I'll be happy to give my opinion of Barona and anything else.  Thanks!

TH

[Don_Mahaffey]

Todd,
I am very sincere when I say I could play Barona Creek as my home course and never tire of it; I believe it is a very good course and worthy of the accolades it has received.

I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian when it comes to golf holes, most would rank Apache 13 ahead of the 13th at Barona, but I like Barona better. Your 14th is very good, but (I don't want to sound critical, but I guess that's not possible when doing a critique) I like Doak's redan a little more, mainly because it is a very good hole and completely unique to the rest of the holes at Apache.

On 14 I hit it into the greenside bunker and made bogey the first day and was just short of it and missed a 8 footer for birdie the second. So, no triple bogeys. I have to think about #8, Apache doesn't excite me and yours would probably be ranked better by most people, so I can understand why many think it's one of the top holes.  

I also thinks the site at Apache had more possibilities, more natural contours and rugged features, so a little built in advantage there.

[Tom Doak]

Having not seen Barona Creek, I can't really comment on the comparisons, either.

But if you've ever seen Todd E. hit a driver, or me hit a putt, then you'll understand why the tee shots are stronger on his course and the green complexes stronger on mine.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don, What a great timely post--

My take:

1-A close one, and I have to say that after playing Barona now for about the 15th to 20th time, after last weekend the hole is becoming more and mroe interesting to me. However, the green complex and the blinding mound wins it hands down.
AS 1 Up

2-Some really nice looking bunkering on Barona #2, but how could one put the strategy of Apache Stronghold out of their mind, and then what seems to be the least contoured green on the course ends up being one of the most severe! (I holed about a 30 footer there the first time I played it, but then have three putted it the next two times!!)
AS 2 Up

3-Apache Stronghold's 3rd is a hole very reminescent of one of the two crossing par 3's (#5 & on the Eden Course at St. Andrews. How could I not love it?

However, I can play Barona from any tee and feel completely intimidated--yet know I can beat Todd Eckenrode from any of those tees with just one swing--No matter how long he hits it off of the tees! simply put, Barona #3 is a thrill and the bunker tie-in of #5 in the back is pretty good.

AS 1-Up

4-Barona #4 is one of the strongest holes on the course. Really intimidating, yet inviting off of the tee. What is missing is a green that could use some really interesting Doak-style contours. #4 AS is such a naturally routed hole that just turns so pefectly towards that space between the hillocks. great green too. Still both are great holes and it is a push.

AS 1-Up

5-Not even a contest. the green at Apaches Stronghold maybe one of the greatest greens built in this century. Maybe because it was so natually there. (I think)

AS 2-up

6-I hate to differ with Don here, but the 6th at Apache Stronghold is the consumate short, drivable par 4. I have played it from both tees, left and right, and I find it to be a kick. However, I think that the placement of the fairway bunker on Barona #6 maybe one of Todd's best bunker placement's to date (giving all respect to Barona #14) To far left and you really bring the bunker into play. from the far right, the bunker is still dancing in your mind, ready to accept any challenge.

AS-3 Up

7th-This is a hole which I'm very familiar with--Barona's 7th and it is a pretty good golf hole. While I think that the green could have used a bit more slope towards the back, especially since it is into a prevailing cross wind, still it is one of the two best one-shotters on the course. Doak's green on the 7th, which I might add reminds me of the downward sloping 16th at Stonewall is pretty cool though.

AS-2 Up

8th-The look of Barona #8 is pretty nice, but there are some problems with the hole strategically. A carry over the bunkers should allow for a less difficult shot in. It is more or less handicapped by the oak trees which block a full shot and require a worm burner to get to the green. (If you are fortunate to be of a person of considerable length and talent at this game, I just don't see controlling a skull into the green after carrying that massive hazard a suitable reward for the task. For firm and fast conditions, trying to carry the 2nd from the right side of the fairway is not the easiest of shots in the world either, so the result is a very difficult shot no matter where you are on the course. It's not Todd's fault either.

Meanwhile the green on #8, along with the beautiful fairway bunker, gets the win of the hole for Apache Stronghold. (Ironically one of Tom's least minimal holes in existence. A lot of earth moved for this one if I remember.)

AS-3 Up

#9-Todd's Fazio hole, although he refrained from doing any fairway containment which makes it pretty good. However, the way #9 @ AS sort of folds near the crossing wash and then rises to the green wins it.

AS 4-UP

#10-Reverse punch bowl green wins it for creativity alone! I like to call this hole Diamond Back because the first time I played it, there was a baby diamond back rattler guarding the steps to the tee. How ironic to finally make your way to the tee around it to see a serpintine bunker dictating play and strategy!

AS-5 Up

#11-One of Tom's best one-shoters (Which isn't a Redan) of all time. compared to Barona's very strong 11th. The green alone wins it at Apache Stronghold. sort of a creek bed running through the front to the center of the green that disappates. (the best way I can describe it)

AS-6 Up

#12-This hole is very much like the 11th a Quarry @ La Quinta. Its just that Tom's (Doak) version of it is more in tune with the TE Paul version of maintenance meld that makes it so much better. (Yes, I'm partial) However, there is always a strong sense for me to try to carry the bunkers which hide the turn of the fairway at Barona. Its a tough shot and Todd didn't ever think people would ever want to try it, yet, everyone does--including this yutz. Phenominal bunkering.

AS-5 Up

#13-Not even a contest. (Much like my match with John Bernhardt on Sunday!) The strategy as well as the naturalness of the 13 at Apache Stronghold is world class.

AS-6 Up

#14-Toughest match of the day, and as Dave S./Shivas has noted in another topic, Barona #14 is a consumate one-shotter. However, Apache Stronghold's 14th, for all accounts maybe one of the greatest modern Redans in the game today. Especially if it is at 5:30 pm on a clear Arizona evening where the sky is of a purple haze that would make Jimmy Hendrix break out into a world class guitar solo.  Apahce Stronghold's 14th is rock music at its finest, however this hole is a tie.

AS-6 Up

#15-(I have to make this quick)
Barona Creek
AS-5 up

#16-
Apache Stronghold

AS-6 Up

#17-
Apache Stronghold

AS-7 up

#18-
Barona Creek
AS-6 Up

[Doug Wright]

BiilV/Redanman:

I played 36 @ Apache Stronghold on April 12. It's a great course, not as good as Pacific Dunes IMO but pretty darn close, way better than High Pointe (the other Doak I've played). Terrific routing, great topography. The greensites are just outstanding, eg 1,2,3,4,5  , 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 17!  As far as conditioning goes, it's still quite spotty. They had a few fairways closed to cart traffic (eg 13) which will help. It seems like the soil isn't conducive to growing grass. Could be a long term problem. The course did not play quite as "firm and fast" as I expected, probably because of the watering being done to improve the fairways. The greens are in excellent condition, though, slightly slow for my taste but just fine for most I'm sure. Don Mahaffey's brother is the new super there--hadn't been there before so can't compare but I was certainly able to play the ball "down" with only a couple of spotty lies.  

It seems like Doak backed off somewhat relative to Pacific Dunes, perhaps reflecting the different golfing clientele at this casino/public facility? The fairways are pretty flat, but many of the greens are really fun with the swales and lots of movement.

Re your comment on AS blowing away the Scottsdale crowd, you're right on there I think. In fact, I'm completing an Apache Stronghold-Talking Stick North comparison thread that I'll throw on here shortly. That's about the only Scottsdale course that comes close IMO.

All The Best,

[Matt_Ward]

One of the great things you can easily say about both Barona and Apache is that they have added so much to their respective areas -- San Diego and the central AZ area.

Too much of San Diego is just repetitive so-so public golf. How a locale can have such great annual weather but offers plain jane vanilla layouts for the most part has always puzzled me. Barona has plenty of flavor and you must be able to handle a range of challenging situations. Anyone in the SD area who fails to get over and see the course is really missing something of quality.

AS has shown why many of those overly priced upscale courses in Maricopa County are just a waste of time. Granted the turf conditions are not top notch just yet, but AS is not about hype it's about product.

As far as other public courses worth seeing that don't require a Master Card or Visa I would recommend del Lago GC in Vail (AZ) / just south of Tucson off of I-10. The 7,206 yard Nugent design is well done and worth a peak for those who tire of the upscale layouts you get just northeast of town.

[Gene Greco]

Just got back from Apache on the red eye from Phoenix. Info hasn't changed since Doug Wright's report regarding conditioning.

Apache was a real treat having some of the finest set of greens in America! Found the opposite of Doug's comment to be true - greens were fast - around ten to eleven.

Great place to play zen golf. Was first off walking with local clubmaker two hours before anyone else teed it up. Peace in the high desert with some astounding mountain views.

7500 yds but fun all the way around. However, sick opening hole of 660 yds up a hill with a blind approach if you're on the wrong side of the fairway had me yearning for a Mountain Dew. Definitely wanted one after walking up to a couple of tee boxes on the back nine from which one could hanglide back down.

Had the shrimp alfredo cooked to order in the casino, full buffet, had a room in the hotel and the round of golf ALL for $89 (which was recommended earlier by Slag Bandoon). Just to be able to putt on all 18 green complexes was worth that!

[Don_Mahaffey]

I happy to see that others are beginning to notice how fabulous the greens are at Apache Stronghold. I think all the talk about poor conditioning in the past may have shifted the focus. I have to say that I have never seen a better set of greens. They are so good I find it very hard to give them a proper description. I've never seen another Doak course so I don't know if this is the norm or if they just got it perfect here, but I think anyone who appreciates great architecture will feel like they are in the presence of something very special when they putt on those greens.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don,
Just like San Francisco Golf Club and the freeway; Riviera and the Japanese with Tom Marzloff; and the person known as Rich Goodale that I golfed with on Sunday in comparison to his on-line charcter of today........

If one has to consider the conditioning of Apache Stronghold as substantioal to its greatness, well, then you really shouldn't be there.

Barona Creek is a very good golf course.

Apache Stronghold is a GREAT golf course.

[THuckaby2]

Jesus H. Christ, as they say.  6up on Barona???  Now I know the Emperor's affinity for all things Doak, but that is still one strong statement.  I doubt I'd get freakin' NGLA 6up on Barona (but please don't make me try).

OK, if that isn't more testimony that I need to get my sorry butt down to see Apache, nothing is.

Wow!

TH

[Dan Belden]

  There is no way on gods green earth that Apache Stronghold beats Barona 6up.   The only person that could come to that conlcusion is someone that can't play a lick.  
    In my oppinion Apache Stronghold is a very good golf course on a great site.  I think that Barona is a very good golf course on a slighly better then average shot.  
   I was fortunate enough to play 36 at Apache S, and while Ilike it very much it did not provide nearly as much enjoyment for me as Barona does.
  Here is my assesment.

#1.Are you kidinng. Great green site or not the the first at AS is a sleeper.  You are hitting to 100 yard wide flat fairway, and the second isn't a whole lot better.  At Barona you have a strategic drive, followed by a wonderful choice of second shots, to a very good green.    
Baron1up

#2.  Great hole at AS, good hole at Barona. Terrain helps out AS.
All square.
 #3.  Barona hands down.  Lously looking bunkers round bunkers surrounding the green at AS.  Ok site.  3 at Barona is really a fun shot.
Baron 1up
#4.  Two of the best holes on the each course.  Push
Barona  1up.
#5.  Probabaly the best hole on the course at AS.  The tee shot reminds me alot of the 3rd at Shinnecock. If you can catch the slope on the left you can extra yard of the tee.
All Sqaure.
#6.  Fun par 5 at Barona with a great bail out are left of the green.  At AS I drove the green both times with a 3wd, made two birdies. Nice hole, but not as good as Barona.
BArona 1up.
#7.  Nice looking hole at AS, but not very functionable.  It doesn't sit well with my eye. It is a long downhill hoe where Doak takes driver out of your hand for fear of running thru the fairway.  Feels more like a Jones Sr. hole than a Doak hole.  The redan at Barona isn't quite sever enough for me. Push
Barona 1up.
#8.  For anyone that has any game at all the green really opens up from the left.  Hitting it over the bunker into the left side of the fairway lets you use the slope of the green without fear of being short or long.  AS is nice par 5 if you hit it down the right side you have a nice view of the green to reach it in two.  Barona wins it with a really neat and severe green.  
Baron 2up.  
#9.  I give this one to AS.  Neat green and one of tighter second shots on the the course.
Barona 1up.
#10.  Not my favorite hole at Barona, but that green is a lot of fun.  I have no idea what Doak was  trying to accomplich at AS.  

[Dan Belden]

#11.  Ordinary par 3 at AS, great par 3 at Barona.  Maybe the best hole on the course.  
Barona 3up.
#12.  Two good holes on both courses, but nothing that stands out.  Push
BArona 3up.
#13.  Two good holes again. Push
Barona 3up.
#14.  The redan is to short.  Neat green, neat site, but not very challenging.  At Barona whether you choose driver or lay up it is a fun and sporty hole.  
Barona 4up.
#15.  Fun hole at AS with a good green to boot.  Good hole at Barona, but AS gets this one.  
#16.  I love(  very sarcastic) par fives where the play is an iron of the tee.  Not a three wood mind you, but an iron.  Worst hole on the course, and suprisingly a bad hole on a very good course. Barona in a laugher.
Barona 5up.  
#17.  Best par 3 at AS.  Another good par 5 at Barona, but again another split fariway.  
Barona 4up.
#18.  The finish at AS seems forced, from the Back tee it just doesn't play very well.  I hit four shots trying to figure out where the hell to hit it, and to my suprise had 4 sand wedges into the green.  I actually really liked the hole from the middle tee where you could see the hole, and how to play it.  Ilike 18 at Barona, and it is a brut, but if I really like AS from the other tee.  Push
Barona 4up.  
   A few observations.  A confusing hole is really on the cusp of just being a bad hole.  If a confusing hole is on a good golf course, then it is just confusing.  If it is on a bad course, then it is just another bad hole.
    Of the two Doak courses that I have played ( Pacific Dunes and AS), they seem a little to easy for the expert player.  It is like he doesn't quite get it.  I love Pacific Dunes, and I really like AS,but  I don't think he has found the right blend of fitting a course for the expert player.I think that Talking Stick North is better course than AS.  I think that it would win four up as well.   Dan Belden

[Dan Belden]

 I apologize for the lousy spelling and edit job in my first post.  For some reason I got cut off from it and could not edit it.  Obviously I cannot type or spell a lick.  Dan Belden

[Mark_Fine]

I agree with the comment that both courses add a lot to their respective areas - well done!!  However, when comparing them to the best of the best, you have to eliminate the regional bias factor.  As Tommy points out, AS holds its head the highest.  AS is a solid 7 and Barona is very good but more in the 6 range compared to the best that I have seen!  Putting Barona in the elite catagory with courses like Pacific Dunes for example is crazy.  Courses like that are in a totally different league.  Just my opinion.  
Mark