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Kirk Gill

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Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2009, 12:48:11 PM »
"Charm" is interpreted in too many different ways. Sometimes to call something charming is to imply a diminishment - that the person or thing being described is a little smaller, a lesser version of that thing, but that in the lessening some kind of appeal is achieved. Am I making sense? This is, to me, different than when the word is used to describe the quality of a person (usually a man) who is deemed to be attractive because of some persuasive quality, the kind of guy who could "charm you out of your pants," so to speak. It's like there's some kind of lie there, in which both the charmer and the "charmee" are somehow complicit.

When I'm thinking about a charming golf course, I'm thinking that it can't be a big, brawny, penal, or impersonal-feeling course. It has to be just a little smaller, a little friendlier, whether by virtue of the course itself, it's surroundings, or the club that encompasses it. I don't know that Torrey Pines South, for instance, has much charm - Tiger's work there notwithstanding. But Torrey Pines North does have charm. Here in Denver there's a course like Murphy Creek, which I enjoy playing very much - but I don't see it as charming. It's just a big, fun golf course. But the old City Park muni, with it's crossing mounds and tilted greens, it is charming to me. To each our own, I guess.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tom Huckaby

Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2009, 01:08:26 PM »
Kirk:  of course this is very personal, very relative, and to each our own, for sure.

But whereas I see courses like Torrey Pines North to be more FUN than Torrey Pines South, I find the South to be more "charming."  And it is big, brawny, penal and impersonal-feeling.

How can this be?

It comes down to how Rich first defined this, way back - does the course charm you, ie bewitch, etc.?

And courses on which the greats have worked their magic cast a spell on me.  I can't be alone in that.  So if we really want to say which are "charming"... well that holds a lot of sway to me.  On top of that, I do like to face stern or unique challenges - not all the time - but combine it with the historical feel, and well... that to me is always gonna "charm." Thus the South - which has all this - charms me more than the North - which does not have the historical feel nor give many unique challenges.

TH

Tim Pitner

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Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2009, 01:26:44 PM »
I found an afternoon 9 holes at Torrey Pines South, with the sun starting to set and the course uncrowded, to be quite charming, although it admittedly had more to do with the setting than the course. 

Recognizing that this is subjective, I don't see that whether the pros play a course factors into the charm of a course.  A really historic venue might be different, but the fact that Tiger beat a journeyman pro on TP South doesn't make TP South "charming" to me (but I don't have the man-crush on Tiger that some do ;)).  Is Whistling Straits--the epitome of a big, brawny course--"charming" simply because it hosted a PGA Championship?  I think not.  I guess I subscribe to more of Kirk's definition of charm. 

Kirk Gill

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Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2009, 01:37:52 PM »
Really interesting, Tom, especially how the history of a course contributes to it's charm. That feeling didn't strike me at TPS, although my time there was prior to Tiger's heroics. I know I was awestruck thinking about the history of all those who played at TOC when I was there. The history is palpable. But I don't think of that course as charming, either. It's too big, too important for me to think of it as charming. It has a toughness to it, not just in how hard it was to play, but something indomitable.....a greatness for which charming is an inadequate adjective........

Maybe that second definition of charming that I was talking about above comes closer to where you're coming from? I think that TPS just "charmed the pants off of you," hopefully figuratively speaking.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

JMorgan

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Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »

I ask the question about charm and championship/famous courses because all courses have some element of charm to those you know them well enough.  However, I was curious to know why, after a play or two, folks know the charm is either there in spades or it will take some digging to find it.  What is even more curious is that I think Sandwich has bags of charm, but it can also break your back - a most unusual combination imo.  I was also curious to know if it is the total package of the course, the club, the house, the history which blend together to lend itself to charm.  Personally, and I have always felt this way, I think the extras exert more influence (is this where circle connects in knowing charm when we see it?) on golfers than they like to admit or even realize.   

Hoylake?  The more I get to know this place the more I find myself moving from begrudging respect to genuine admiration.  Though I am not yet ready to say it is a charming course.  Could it be that Hoylake doesn't need charm to get all of its messages across? 

Sean, I'd argue that those extras definitely augment the charm, but obviously one carries along one's expectations and experiences to bear on that judgment.  The personality who prefers solitude to companionship probably more easily sees charm in the natural, enclosed course with a cozily prepossessing clubhouse at the end than the round taken on the open, crowded course that looks manufactured or has a commercial clubhouse atmosphere.  In the former category I'd place some of the clubs I mentioned above like Woking or Huntercombe, while I won't bother with the later group. 

Hoylake's history and club atmosphere and history seem somehow necessary to any charm got from the course, at least for me.  I wouldn't call the sense in which the courses "captures or appeals or causes one to become enamored" a form of charm.  For me, it's more of an intellectual respect or appeal than it is an emotional one -- though upon reflection, it becomes more of a sentimental charmed view, which then colors the next visit and round.

Muirfield, with its demanding course and unique clubhouse rituals, needs a few more goes before it becomes charming; but I do think it is quite charming once the experience is digested and reflected upon ... and this experience again has more to do with psychological time and golf history than immediate perceptions. 

Just curious, what examples would you cite for charmless courses?

Tom Huckaby

Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2009, 02:56:22 PM »
Tim:  historic events that occurred before me on a course most definitely matter to me.  I feel the presence of ghosts and like to try to recreate famous shots.  If such things do not matter to you, then fair enough.  Just note that I have no man-crushes... and this is indeed relative.  The feeling is not ENORMOUS at TP-S, and I doubt I'd feel it at all at Whistling Straits.  In any case to me, it just adds to the "charm" - it doesn't make or break it.  Given I find TP-S to have other qualities that charmed me as well - similar to what you saw in your 9 holes there, as well as the difficult/challenging/vexing shots to be played - this just puts it over the top, such that I'd say that to me, it was more charming than the North course.

Kirk:  my take is more toward your second defintion without a doubt... and in any case, I can't possibly think of a MORE charming course the way I look at things than The Old Course.  I think only NGLA comes close.

TH

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2009, 03:04:10 PM »
Like Justice Potter, I know charm when I see it:

The fantastic and rarely mentioned 2nd at Carnoustie:



The dead end to Hogan's Alley:


I think Carnoustie is charming and underrated.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2009, 03:05:54 PM »
Mike:

I agree.  At first as I thought of this, I didn't think of Carnoustie as charming.  But as the definition of that has evolved for me, I believe it most definitely is.

Under-rated would depend on where one rates it.   ;)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2009, 06:07:06 PM »

I ask the question about charm and championship/famous courses because all courses have some element of charm to those you know them well enough.  However, I was curious to know why, after a play or two, folks know the charm is either there in spades or it will take some digging to find it.  What is even more curious is that I think Sandwich has bags of charm, but it can also break your back - a most unusual combination imo.  I was also curious to know if it is the total package of the course, the club, the house, the history which blend together to lend itself to charm.  Personally, and I have always felt this way, I think the extras exert more influence (is this where circle connects in knowing charm when we see it?) on golfers than they like to admit or even realize.   

Hoylake?  The more I get to know this place the more I find myself moving from begrudging respect to genuine admiration.  Though I am not yet ready to say it is a charming course.  Could it be that Hoylake doesn't need charm to get all of its messages across? 

Sean, I'd argue that those extras definitely augment the charm, but obviously one carries along one's expectations and experiences to bear on that judgment.  The personality who prefers solitude to companionship probably more easily sees charm in the natural, enclosed course with a cozily prepossessing clubhouse at the end than the round taken on the open, crowded course that looks manufactured or has a commercial clubhouse atmosphere.  In the former category I'd place some of the clubs I mentioned above like Woking or Huntercombe, while I won't bother with the later group. 

Hoylake's history and club atmosphere and history seem somehow necessary to any charm got from the course, at least for me.  I wouldn't call the sense in which the courses "captures or appeals or causes one to become enamored" a form of charm.  For me, it's more of an intellectual respect or appeal than it is an emotional one -- though upon reflection, it becomes more of a sentimental charmed view, which then colors the next visit and round.

Muirfield, with its demanding course and unique clubhouse rituals, needs a few more goes before it becomes charming; but I do think it is quite charming once the experience is digested and reflected upon ... and this experience again has more to do with psychological time and golf history than immediate perceptions. 

Just curious, what examples would you cite for charmless courses?

J

I would start with places like Muirfield.  As I say, its far too much of a straight shooter to be charming.  While playing Muirfield one never gets the impression that he is being hoodwinked or conned.  So far as the house goes, no, it isn't charming.  The house is more like a monument to golf.  Check that, a monument to men's golf. 

Lytham, Carnoustie and Troon follow in quick succession.  Carnoustie suffers most of all because of its plastic house, but I spose its a huge improvement on what was there previously.  Lytham just has nothing to look at while walking.  It truly is an ugly course.  Besides, any course with that many bunkers has serious problems, the least of which is charm factor.  Troon - its about the most corporate run private Open course I have come across.  Cold at the door, cold coming home and cold in the bar.  No, Troon could never be mistaken for a charmer.  To be sure you don't think me completely uncharitable, I readily concede that all of these courses offer the required tests of championship golf, but that is about all I can say other than I have no desire to ever see any of these courses again unless I somehow find the key to the second of my nine lives.

While I am here let me nominate another charmer which may surprise some - Huntercombe.  This club very nearly epitomizes the very essence of what friendly golf is.  Its another one of those blowbacks from simpler times that really keeps one interested without the golfer ever feeling like he needed a breakfast of champions to get round.  The club too has a faded classic English rich folk broken down feel which is difficult to describe or export. 

Ciao 

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Huckaby

Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2009, 08:36:49 PM »
Sean - after all of this I still don't quite understand how you define "charming."

To me it's not being hoodwinked or conned, it's more being "bewitched."  That's a wholly different
thing as I see it.

And as I have explained rather ad nauseam so far, I find each of the ones you cite as charmless
to be quite charming... yes they are stern tests... but to me answering hard questions bewitches me in a very real way (noting also of course that too much of this gets old quickly).  When one then adds the historical feel I have also described ad nauseam, well I just can't see how these courses could possibly be charmless.  Not as I define the term anyway.

SO... it is enough to say that we are really talking about two different things?  It would seem so.. and that is just fine.

One curious thing though - I think I agree with the courses you call charming.  They bewitch me as well, just in a different way. 

What I have a hard time with is calling these others "charmless."  In fact since as per previous posts we are to keep this to the canon of great courses, well.... I am having a hard time coming up with a course that is great but also charmless.  Charmless courses are those that AREN'T great....

I think this is our basic disconnect here.  I really don't think a great course can be charmless.  Each as part of the greatness will indeed bewitch.  Some may bewilder, also.  But bewitch they will.

At least as I see this.

Fascinating topic, btw.
 ;D


TH





« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 08:43:24 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2009, 12:24:54 AM »
It's also true, at least IMO, that courses in the UK seem to have a higher ratio of charm than US courses.  I think it's the patina of the surroundings but it's also the heather or gorse or linksland.

I'm a sucker for golf in the United Kingdom.  ;)

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2009, 07:46:12 AM »
As Tom Simpson said once about Colt's changes to Muirfield, they are "featureless, by reason of their OBVIOUS and STRAIGHTFORWARD character... Now in Golf Course Design, the obvious thing is almost invariably the wrong thing"... Simpson went on to say the holes at Muirfield in question had a "complete lack of subtlety…"

Professional jealousies aside, I think Simpson was on to something. And so is Sean.

Rich - I'm not sure charm and Muirfield fit easily in the same sentence. Are you confusing charm with some combination of exacting, testing and relentless? Though I do think the 17th is a wonderful hole.

Bob

Bob

When you consider that Muirfield is all about angles, and how these play with the bunkers, hazards and wind, most of Simpson's report is unfathomable.   The report is highly amusing but in the end  it just comes across as Simpson being his usual nutty self and trying to get the job.

I think it's pretty simple, Muirfield is thought charmless by some because its terrain isn't spectacular: "Auld Water Meadie".
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2009, 07:58:10 AM »
Paul -

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Simpson as a nut. To the contrary, I would humbly suggest that Simpson's credentials are beyond serious dispute and a voice always worth listening to.

There are a non-trivial number of reasonably astute people who - to varying degrees - agree with Simpson about Muirfield. I'm one of them. 

Bob 

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2009, 08:20:50 AM »
Doug Wright and Chris Cupit,

I understand your takes on Royal Dublin (and agree to some extent), but I just can't bring myself to call it charmless.  Maybe I just had a good day there.  I took a city bus to the course and walked across the bridge; I experienced at least 3 seasons during the round; I randomly got paired up with some great guys; and the people at the club couldn't have been friendlier (especially for a course with a "Royal" designation). 

As for the course, I thought it was a good, solid course--not great, not especially interesting.  The fact that there is a links course in that location that's any good at all is sort of amazing--"links by the docks."  In a way, I was charmed by the incongruity of it all.  I also agree with Ally that the bridge to the club, Bull Island and the clubhouse provide some charm. 

I know there's been quite a bit of work done at Royal Dublin recently--was it by Hawtree?  I haven't seen him post in a long time but fellow poster RT worked on Royal Dublin.  EDIT--a quick look at Royal Dublin's website suggests that the bunkering and greens were reworked extensively.  http://www.theroyaldublingolfclub.com/royaldublin/golf.links.do

Hmmm.  Maybe my description as "ugly" was better than charmless.  I, too, had a great day of golf and the pints afterwards were in a great and welcoming atmosphere.  I just can't bring myself to declare it charming ::)  but I'll concede that it may not be completely charmless ;)  I'm just not a city slicker and the industrial views of Dublin just did nothing for me.  I was guided around by my Dubliner brother-in-law (no, I can't remember if he was a north or south of the Liffey guy) and was enthalled by the city and its history but, his tour never included looking out to the docks/cranes :D

I also had trouble remembering any hole aside form the first and eighteenth (I really disliked 18).  My poor memory shouldn't penalize a course I guess but in this case it may have.  And usually I remember every hole I play.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2009, 08:37:04 AM »
Paul -

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Simpson as a nut. To the contrary, I would humbly suggest that Simpson's credentials are beyond serious dispute and a voice always worth listening to.

There are a non-trivial number of reasonably astute people who - to varying degrees - agree with Simpson about Muirfield. I'm one of them. 

Bob 

Bob

I'm a fan of Simpson's work, just think the report is mostly way off.  he was undeniably nutty and I think somewhat inconsistent with his ideas.  I mean he's strongly against heavily bunkered courses and then builds a course like Blackwell with a bunker 200 yds long!

Specifically, how do you agree with Simpson's analysis?  How is Muirfield more prone to a "straight forward" and obvious approach than the other famous links?  I don't see it at all.

I wonder what Simpson thought of Prestwick's Alps?

One thing Simpson inexplicably leaves out of his report is the prevailing wind.  He doesn't seem to understand why the wing bunkers are there for a severe cross wind i.e. the old line of traps on the 1st? 

I think he did improve Muirfield in some respects.  Most obviously the 13th, adding the centre bunker to 9 and probably the rebunkering of the approach to 18th.  But I think the club was right to ignore most of it.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2009, 01:47:04 PM »
Sean - after all of this I still don't quite understand how you define "charming."

To me it's not being hoodwinked or conned, it's more being "bewitched."  That's a wholly different
thing as I see it.

And as I have explained rather ad nauseam so far, I find each of the ones you cite as charmless
to be quite charming... yes they are stern tests... but to me answering hard questions bewitches me in a very real way (noting also of course that too much of this gets old quickly).  When one then adds the historical feel I have also described ad nauseam, well I just can't see how these courses could possibly be charmless.  Not as I define the term anyway.

SO... it is enough to say that we are really talking about two different things?  It would seem so.. and that is just fine.

One curious thing though - I think I agree with the courses you call charming.  They bewitch me as well, just in a different way. 

What I have a hard time with is calling these others "charmless."  In fact since as per previous posts we are to keep this to the canon of great courses, well.... I am having a hard time coming up with a course that is great but also charmless.  Charmless courses are those that AREN'T great....

I think this is our basic disconnect here.  I really don't think a great course can be charmless.  Each as part of the greatness will indeed bewitch.  Some may bewilder, also.  But bewitch they will.

At least as I see this.

Fascinating topic, btw.
 ;D


TH







AwsHuckster

Its sounds to me that you could find charm in most any course.  While this may be true, I was more trying to point out relative charm and perhaps how many championship courses are a bit lacking for my taste.  But hey, if you think Troon and Carnoustie and Muirfield are full of charm more power to ya.  For my part, I think the element which makes me want to come back most is the charm rather than the "quality" of a course. 

While I am here, I would like to nominate Woodhall Spa as a course without much charm. Unusually though, I have a lot of time for place.  I spose it must be the bunkering.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2009, 02:59:09 PM »
Every European and British course they have taken the Ryder Cup to since 1985

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2010, 05:27:33 AM »
I thought this was a good topic that wasn't completely explored.  Besides, we can't have Mike laying down the last word on this subject!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2010, 05:33:37 AM »
Every European and British course they have taken the Ryder Cup to since 1985

Belfry is utterly charmless for sure, but Valderrama and the K Club have some redeeming features, Maybe not many, but some.

Celtic Manor may give the Belfry a close run, though.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2010, 06:10:34 AM »
I think Carnoustie is a great course BECAUSE it overcomes it's essentially charmless nature.....
 
Most Charming:

TOC
Prestwick
Shoreacres
Lawsonia
Kingsley

Least charming:

Rich Harvest
Butler National
Medinah #3
The European Club
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 09:43:37 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2010, 08:21:56 AM »
Its been mentioned a couple of times already, but I would say Hoylake has little charm or personality. If I'm putting together a list for this site of favourite holes or something like that, if I'm not panning around Google maps, then I usually forget that I've played the place! If anything the cops and a couple of holes through the dunes try to give it something, but dont quite do it for me.

Cheers,

James
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:50:07 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2010, 02:15:49 PM »
Its been mentioned a couple of times already, but I would say Hoylake has little charm or personality. If I'm putting together a list for this site of favourite holes or something like that, if I'm not panning around Google maps, then I usually forget that I've played the place! If anything the cops and a couple of holes through the dunes try to give it something, but dont quite do it for me.

Cheers,

ames

"Charming" was not the word that came to mind in October 2006 when the Buda Cup was fiercely contested at Hoylake, at least not the weather, which was wet, windy and pretty miserable.

But the overall experience, which I believe is essential to defining "charm," was very charming indeed.  The course is a great match play venue, with corners to cut, diabolical gathering bunkers of stacked sod, a couple of blind shots of interest, and very good par 3s indeed.

The wonderful dinner in the clubhouse the first evening, with the club historian and captain in attendance and answering all of our questions, added greatly to the charm.


John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2010, 04:49:57 PM »
High charm for me include: 
- Woking
- Palmetto
- Yeamans Hall
- NGLA
- Southern Pines
- Elie and many other little courses in GBI
- the 9-holer Fenwick in CT

Contrary to some others I don't find Tobacco Rd charming.  Its fun, quirkly, visually stunning, and varied but its too much of a cart oriented venue, lacks intimacy in that it sprawls some and the holes are disconnected largely, and is missing some style/class to hit the charm meter for me.  Its not that it isn't private either as Southern Pines and Fenwick are far from that.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2010, 04:57:20 PM »
Bill,

Buda at Hoylake was before my time, and maybe after a few rounds my opinion would be different? However, there are two things which didn't help my experience.

Firstly, we played off the yellow tees about 2 months after Tiger's Open win, so the course was very firm and fast but also 1,000 yards shorter. So I was looking forward to taking on the 14th (usually played as 12) where Tiger holed his long iron for a two after laying up with an iron between the bunkers, however from a forward tee it was a driver over the bunkers and a flick with a wedge?

The other problem, I just hinted at. We played the holes as they were in the Open, so we teed off on 17 and the famous 1st with the cop and out of bounds right was our third. This though means every time I discuss the course with someone I have no idea which hole is being discussed...

Having said that I remember the 10th and 13th (sorry, 8th and 11th) as a great 5 and 3 in the dunes, so perhaps on another play I would start to love it more, and maybe see a bit more charm?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CHARMLESS COURSES
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2010, 05:01:35 PM »
Liberty National
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!