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Jonathan Cummings

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Black Day at Black Rock
« on: January 20, 2009, 07:07:57 PM »
I just heard that Black Rock announced today that they are filing Chapter 11.  Astounding range to go from Best New Private to Chapter 11 in just a few years....

JC
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Craig Sweet

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 07:14:51 PM »
Black Rock in Idaho?
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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 07:29:04 PM »
Black Rock in Idaho.
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Craig Sweet

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 07:32:57 PM »
Wow...well, it seems to me that is a narrow market to sell to.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 07:37:59 PM »
 ???
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:22:41 PM by Garland Bayley »
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David_Elvins

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 07:40:37 PM »
Quote from: Jonathan on January 20, 2009, 07:07:57 PM
Astounding range to go from Best New Private to Chapter 11 in just a few years....
Not necessarrily astounding.  Both were probably due to spending of a lot of money.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 08:40:45 PM by David_Elvins »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 09:29:51 PM »
Jonathan:

That is bad news, because it's likely symbolic of where other courses stand (and not just the ones Garland mentioned ... I think Rock Creek is on a lot more solid footing than some others).

The amazing thing is that Black Rock was "doubling down" and getting ready to open a second 18 holes (by Tom Weiskopf).  Did they get it open before it closed?

David E:

Spending a lot of money was one side of the equation.  Not recovering the anticipated amounts through lot sales are the other side.  Second-home golf communities are not in the sweet spot right now ... and like banks, many of them are highly leveraged (by banks!).
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Bill Gayne

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 10:21:17 PM »
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 10:27:17 PM »
What is the status of the second course at Black Mesa?
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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 10:32:49 PM »
Tom - the Weiskopf course at Black Rock opened last fall.  I'm told it's quite good.  I won't see it until the spring.

Bill asks a good question.  What's this mean (if anything) for the second course at Black Mesa.

JC
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Andy Troeger

Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 10:33:38 PM »
What happens when a course files Chapter 11? I remember threads mentioning problems at Yellowstone Club in MT and Snake River Sporting Club in WY--are those courses still open for play?
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 12:42:50 AM »
Andy:

Both courses you mention are under a heap of snow right now.  Don't know about their financial status.

Bill / Jonathan:

I don't know why Black Mesa came up, and certainly don't want anyone to get the two places confused.  We have been doing planning work for the second course at Black Mesa and (as of last Friday) hope to get to construction in late spring.  Nothing is certain in this economy but Eddie Peck seems to be confident in being able to move forward ... we've actually been discussing it for longer than most people know, so we are well prepared.
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Matt_Ward

Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 01:12:43 AM »
Sorry to hear about Black Rock but one can only wonder how many other "surprises" are ready to do likewise or have to take a major fall back from their previous lofty heights.

Be interesting to see if such facilities would open their doors to some outside play -- likely that won't matter much if they are hurting that badly.

From what I have been told the Weiskopf course there is supposed to be one of Tom's very best efforts.

Curious to see if the bankruptcy action will have any effect on it's overall standing.
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Rob Rigg

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 01:31:22 AM »
Some positive news out of Pronghorn today - they have sold 13 of their Tesana lots in a pretty horrendous market. I also read that Tetherow is doing "okay". Average price for a Tesana lot is around $350k and $1M or so for a constructed home.

Maybe the other courses in Bend (and elsewhere????) have a chance . . .

Sad to hear about great/nice/solid courses filing. Maybe they can open them up to the public and cover expenses?

It could be a positive benefit for povs like me who could never join/buy in those locales.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 06:52:51 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 21, 2009, 12:42:50 AM
Andy:

Both courses you mention are under a heap of snow right now.  Don't know about their financial status.

Bill / Jonathan:

I don't know why Black Mesa came up, and certainly don't want anyone to get the two places confused.  We have been doing planning work for the second course at Black Mesa and (as of last Friday) hope to get to construction in late spring.  Nothing is certain in this economy but Eddie Peck seems to be confident in being able to move forward ... we've actually been discussing it for longer than most people know, so we are well prepared.

Not confused, I brought up Black Mesa just wondering if Eddie and Pat were moving ahead there in view of the economy.  Glad to hear things are on track.  It's encouraging news!
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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 07:43:28 AM »
Bill G - if I read your graph correctly it says that a person's annual outlay for recreation compared to his total annual outlay has been marching up linearly over the last 100 years..... about 1/10 of 1 percent a year!!  If this trend holds true then that means I'll be paying 1/10% more (in realtion to my total budget) next year to play golf - hardly something I need to 'circle the wagons' for, especially in light of 401s and stocks losing $100s of thousands in one year.

JC 
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cary lichtenstein

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 08:49:15 AM »
I just heard that the Chapter 11 filing is NOT TRUE.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 05:03:19 PM by cary lichtenstein »
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W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 09:45:06 AM »
Any model based on selling multiple memberships at different clubs around the country to the very elite must at some point outstrip the market. 

The question that arises is; what other clubs do the Black Rock members belong to?   what is there financial status?  and is the remote outpost golf resort business going to shrink dramatically as peoples assets shrink by 40%. 

Black Rock is opulent so say the least.  A place like Sand Hills would seem to be much more surviveable.  If this is true, what is the present status of Dismal River?
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 09:50:58 AM »
Cary,

I'm curious why you would consider Black Rock to be "very very remote".  Your only 45 minutes from a middle tier city in Spokane and its international airport and only 15 minutes from Couer D' Alene. 

When I think remote I think Sand Hills or Ballyneal which is hours and hours away from anything.
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George Freeman

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 09:59:35 AM »
Has anyone played the Weiskopf design that can chime in?  Any pictures...I'm intrigued to see how it turned out.

Thanks,

George
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Ian Andrew

Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2009, 10:03:38 AM »
Cary,

I think the model is fine in small supply.

The problem is the no economy will support the amount of high-end projects that are currently on the market.
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Andy Troeger

Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2009, 10:14:14 AM »
Tom (or others),
I guess my point wasn't to ask about those specific courses but am just curious what filing Chapter 11 actually means to a golf course generally. Obviously some businesses reorganize and come out on the other side in a different form, but I don't know with a high end golf club how one would "reorganize" or how the courts would treat such a thing.

I'm guessing that a course would continue operations under a Chapter 11 but not under a Chapter 7. Is that correct? Just curious if anyone has any good examples since I don't really know what I'm talking about.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 10:17:11 AM »


 Don't get me started on Pacific Groves $10M+ Clubhouse!   ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 09:40:54 PM by Adam Clayman »
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Craig Sweet

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 12:44:48 PM »
I've been searching the Idaho/eastern Washington online papers for more info on this, but have found nothing.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Black Day at Black Rock
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2009, 12:54:02 PM »
..
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 07:19:37 PM by Kalen Braley »
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