News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« on: January 20, 2009, 12:27:48 PM »
The article Mac wrote on greenkeeping in the December 1922 issue of "Golfing", which includes the Le Touquet reference, contains an intriguing photograph and caption of his new 11th green at Weston-super-Mare, which he had redesigned "after the style of the seventeenth at St Andrews". Bunkers beyond the green took the place of the "famous Road". The photo caption is headlined
"IMITATION IN GOLF ARCHITECTURE!"

Here is evidence of Mackenzie clearly copying one of the most famous holes in golf, a "template" in that sense. And not afraid to advertise that he copied it, seeing as he would have provided the photographs for the article and the thrust of the caption.



The article also contains a photograph of some of his bunkering at WSM and an interesting caption on the bunker shape.



Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 12:36:34 PM »
This is the current 15th hole apparently... Played the course once a long long time ago... A quick look at the website now shows that things have changed somewhat...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 12:42:09 PM »
Sadly those bunkers have been changed and that green was rebuilt, this hole is played at a different angle to how the road hole bunker sits with the green as well and I think always has. The 'bunker' is now front midway up the green on the left, the green does throw the ball towards it now and the green rises front the fairway rather than the ridge.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 12:50:26 PM »
Ally
Not surprising the course has changed in the ensuing 86 or so years!

Adrian
It looks to me that the photo was taken from the right side of the fairway and the line of play may well have been further from the left. I've not really looked to see how that hole appears today.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 01:05:43 PM »

No drainage into bunker, no steep slope in green front (although that may have been added later as they mowed out TOC greens for size), different green contours altogether, etc. Mac obviously wasn't as concerned with a true replica as he might be today with internet watchdogs hounding him, and no debate about just how close something has to be to its prototype to use its name.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 01:24:03 PM »
Ally
Not surprising the course has changed in the ensuing 86 or so years!

Adrian
It looks to me that the photo was taken from the right side of the fairway and the line of play may well have been further from the left. I've not really looked to see how that hole appears today.
that picture is taken from the left side of the fairway, the line of play is miles tothe right. The 11th then is as Ally says todays 15th and that hole remains pretty much as is. Jeff's comment is on the nail...its nothing really like a copy, although todays non Mac version is probably more so.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 01:43:10 PM »
Adrian
Looks like I got that wrong - further right eh?

Certainly not a replica. But what I thought interesting is that Mackenzie would so obviously indicate his source of inspiration for this green. It does look a bit rustic though.

Jeff
Does look like there is a 3 foot or so bank at the front of the WSM version, less than TOC original but I suspect Mac was economising on fill and not wanting to do an 'exact' copy. Certainly the bunker is not in a gathering landform, but drainage may have been against him doing that too. I have made enough excuses for him now I think!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 09:36:24 PM »
Jeff:

Every time I go back to St. Andrews, when I get to the Road hole I think the same thing -- the plateau is just not as high as I remember it being (although it is a bit higher than this green looks to be).  That little abrupt slope plus the shallowness of the green and the trouble in back are enough to make you want to land the ball short, which is the essence of the approach.

Neil:

Another great find.  Keep them coming!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 03:26:00 AM »
I think the shape and length of the hole were meant to be very Road Holish as well.  When you look at the course plan it does become rather obvious that Dr Mac had the Road Hole very squarely in mind.  From the old pic it does look the left bunker was placed half way up the green to guard against approaching from the safe left side off the tee option away from oob on the right.  This really does look to be just about as close to an exact copy of the Road Hole without having a road as one can get.  I suspect the green has been shortened in recent times.  In any case, my Winter Tour is scheduled to make a stop at Weston next Friday and I will take pix if the weather allows.  I have been wanting to play this course for 10 years, but haven't been able to get people down there.  The course doesn't enjoy much of a reputation, but it could be one of those sleepers which I really enjoy.  Though. looking at the website, I am disheartened to see what looks to be very meadowy grass on the fairways - uuuggghhh.

http://www.westonsupermaregolfclub.com/page/map/28

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 03:28:35 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 08:52:14 AM »
Tom D,

With an actual contour map in - WARNING - shameless plug about to appear - Scott McPherson's (sp?) TOC book, we can all stop wondering how high that bank is.....

I am certainly not dissin' the doc.  I fully understand that like CBM after him, and others, that there are many reasons you don't replicate something exactly.  He didn't want to.  Just look at the supposedly TOC inspired holes at ANGC and you can see that he merely wants to capture the essential "strategery" (last minute ode to W there) Or look at that photo - why does he do a curly cue bunker for the pot bunker?  He could have cut it in half, but (shameless assumption here) that it didn't fit his style at the rest of the course.

It's just an interesting idea to debate - and we have when other gca's copy holes - of what it takes to make a claim of being inspired by one thing or another. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 11:50:23 AM »
Regarding Mac's comment on the bunker as well as what is apparent in the picture itself, his experiences in the construction of military trenches is directly applicable and the likely source of his approach.

Here he is on proper construction of trenches (1917) -- hope it's not too small:


And here he is on the proper construction of bunkers (1920):


Interestingly, both reference nature, but I suspect it was his military experience that gave him the window into nature and not nature that informed his military experience.

Mark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 11:55:58 AM »
Regarding Mac's comment on the bunker as well as what is apparent in the picture itself, his experiences in the construction of military trenches is directly applicable and the likely source of his approach.

Here he is on proper construction of trenches (1917) -- hope it's not too small:


And here he is on the proper construction of bunkers (1920):


Interestingly, both reference nature, but I suspect it was his military experience that gave him the window into nature and not nature that informed his military experience.

Mark

Mark

They aren't at all natural, but I think pot bunkers are used for a very practical reason. Part of the problem with this design is wind blows in all directions.  Sand would certainly blow out the back and spread across fairways - risking the health of turf.  I spose it was always possible to create the same shape on the back of the bunker, but then one has to get into the blasted thing!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »
Mark

Did "saving tens of thousands of pounds in revetting material" save any of the millions of lives so needlessly lost in the "Great" war?  Think "Paths of Glory" and think the final episode of "Blackadder."......... :'(

Rich

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 02:09:25 PM »
Tom D
Thanks - we will be trying to find more!
This one came about as I already had a copy of Golfing from Nov 1922 which contained part 2 of a series of short articles on greenkeeping, then I found a copy of the December 1922 issue with the next article in it and purchased it. Not sure if there was a part 4 or not. Have to find part 1 now. A fellow by the name of Nick Norton who lives in London and is doing the EIGCA course has agreed to be my research eyes and ears in London and has started on going through the issues of Golf Illustrated and Golfing in the British Library looking for any and all references to Mackenzie and his course. Hopefully this issue by issue approach will trawl up some nice items.

Sean
I'm curious about the line of play too. I see you are hoping to get there shortly and it would be great if you could - and do a report for us on the course and this hole in particular. I see on the club's website they promote the fact that this hole is a repro of the 17th at TOC.

Jeff
yes, Scott's book does have a contour plan of the Road green, bank seems around 700-800mm high, not dissimilar to the height on Mac's version. And the curlicue bunker is in keeping with the style he introduced for the bunkers on the remainder of WSM.

Mark
Nice quotes thanks. Interesting in the 1917 article he says that millions of pounds MIGHT have been saved if these points were taken up, and then by 1920 says that tens of thousands of pounds WERE saved. Did 1918 see more use of his theories in trench making perhaps? Like Rich says, no mention of lives saved, just pounds. I love the Blackadder series set in the trenches in WW1. Blackadder at his most ascerbic.

If anyone is interested I can post the part II and III articles on Greenkeeping.
Neil

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 04:01:40 PM »


'If anyone is interested I can post the part II and III articles on Greenkeeping.'


Neil - when you have a moment please do - interesting reading. Thanks

Cheers -- Lyne

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 04:03:53 PM »
Neil

Please do post those articles.

Rich, your commentary, while eminently reasonable in the context of the supplied quotes, ultimately may be unfair.

It may be a case of "know your audience.". The excerpt comes from a transcript of a lecture Mac gave to military engineers. Possibly, Mackenzie may have sized up his audience as keen on costs and sought to win them over on their terms.

Or it could be a case of -- crap, what's the term in rhetoric where you pander to an audience's desire without mentioning it? Not unstated premise -- of an unmentioned but desired goal. Trench collapses were known among his audience for the cost in human life. His audience may have regarded safer methods as more expensive but may have been stymied in their efforts by the higher ups.

It is of course possible this is really how Mac thought.  A defining theme, arguably THE defining theme, across his military and golf writings alike, is "economy."

My argument against this interpretation is Mac's repeated condemnation of professional soldiers to use camouflage (one American general notably and regrettably referred to it as "Injun fighting"), and to their refusal to construct trenches in accordance with camouflage principles.

In these areas his rationale was clear and forceful: the needless loss of men.

Neil, a very good close reading of the two texts. A budding Deconstructionist you are!

It certainly is possible. In May 1918 the Special Works Park, the military's camouflage organization and located in the field, reorganized. One result was to bring the Special Works School (note the "camouflage" used for both orgs' names, a concept extended to the project which developed the "tank") under the direct control for the first time of the leadership of the Park.

As part of this reorg, an officer at Park HQ was sent over to head up the School. He reported into Wyatt, the head of the Park.

Included in the reorg was the establishment of a program whereby camouflage personnel assigned to the Park were rotated through the School to both receive the lessons of School "faculty" as well as share their field experience, presumably a progenitor of what eventually came to be known as "reality therapy."

The reorg along with the rotational program would have made it much more likely for Mac's views to receive an airing with the people who had the power to implement it, as well as for those views to have been "dug into the ground."

Mark

PS Put me down as a Blackadder fan, to the point where I purchased the entire series on DVD - and hacked my North Am machine's code so it could play them!

PPS It must however take second place behind the greatest TV series ever: Yes, (Prime) Minister!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 04:06:09 PM »

If anyone is interested I can post the part II and III articles on Greenkeeping.
Neil

Nah, Nah...oh go on then. ;)

Sean and Mark and others.  I have yet to see TOC but reading this has set me thinking about the third at Woking.  You have to hit over a big 'dune slope' on the right or the ball will kick left and it becomes a L-R dogleg.  At some point to add interest a bunker was placed right in the front centre of the green.  Ignoring the bank behind the green, which gives you lots of options, doesn't the bunker ask similar questions here as the one on the Road Hole does? Just musing.
Let's make GCA grate again!

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 04:30:22 PM »
Tony -

The third at Woking is a great example of trying to get the Road Hole idea into a hole without trying to replicate the Road Hole.

I think those changes to the 3rd at Woking were the work of Paton and Low. Done at about the same time as their more famous changes to the 4th.

Bob

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 04:39:16 PM »
Ok, here are the two articles I have, part II first:





Now part III





Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie's Road Hole version at Weston-super-Mare
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 06:09:10 PM »
Tony -

The third at Woking is a great example of trying to get the Road Hole idea into a hole without trying to replicate the Road Hole.

I think those changes to the 3rd at Woking were the work of Paton and Low. Done at about the same time as their more famous changes to the 4th.

Bob

Bob

Except we must remember that the Road Hole is about one heck of a lot more than the green site.  While I love the 3rd at Woking, it isn't anywhere near as demanding as the Road Hole.  To be honest, I can't even decide which is the better way to attack Woking's 3rd, from the left or right - perhaps its down to hole location.  W-S-M's 15th is much more a copy of the strategies of the Road Hole from tee to green. 

Tony M

I too really like the reverse dogleg concept of Woking's 3rd.  In fact, it is one of the few of this type I really like because its so subtle and there is not really a way to escape the influence of the bunker.  It can be mitigated, but not entirely escaped.  Is this a feature of all centreline bunkers - at least for some folks?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back