Overseeding in hot weather climates

[Dave_Miller]

Does anyone know if fall overseeding is a necessity, in extreme hot weather climates such as South Florida, in order to handle the heavy winter and spring  play many courses in this area experience?
Is there a serious drawback to overseeding?  Is it necessary or just something that helps.  Is the pain worth the gain? Are certain strains of Bermuda better than others with or without overseeding.  Can anyone shed any light on this subject?

Cheers,
Dave Miller

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave,

I'm sure others can give you a more technical explanation but overseeding causes two transition periods which adversely affect the playability of the golf course.  

The first incovenience comes in the fall when the course is prepared for overseeding and an abundant supply of water is added.  The second inconvenience takes place in the spring when the overseeding re-transitions.  Both processes can take up to six weeks.

The overseeded grass competes with the native bermuda and I would be curious as to what green superintendents think of the long term effect on the health of the bermuda as a result of this competition.

Sometimes the choice to overseed or not is a guess/gamble on the nature of the upcoming winter weather.

I've seen courses overseed and other courses with similar grass not overseed, and the success or failure of the process is largely in the hands of cooperating/non-cooperating weather.

Some view the process as insurance

The determination can be dependent upon the expectations of the membership and the pressure they exert.

Hope this helps.

[Jimbo]

It is done PURELY  for aesthetics.

It hurts the bermudagrass, no matter what kind.

It costs alot to establish, maintain, and repair the damage it causes.

Why do you want to know?

[Dave_Miller]

Pat:
Do you or does anyone else know if the effects of cart traffic are mitigated by overseeding or not, or if there is a specific type of Bermuda grass that is more resistant so that it handles cart traffic better?
Realizing that any grass that is constantly walked or driven on in the same spot day after day will wear down, is there anything overseeding does to help this traffic or is it simply a case that an old fashioned traffic flow control program is the only real way to handle the problem on courses that get heavy play in the winter and spring.
Cheers
Dave

[Jimbo]

The cart traffic problem would be near ZERO if you didn't overseed.

There is a major HANGOVER when the overseeding party is over.

Talk to us. You're not blaming the Superintendent for the hangover for your clubs party are you?  Did you ask him to bring the champagne ?

Cheers,
Jim

[Dave_Miller]

Jimbo:
A club in South Florida, of which I am a member, tore out all the grass on fairways, tees and greens in the late spring and summer of 2000 and replaced it with a new bermuda (The specific type I don't recall at the moment I'm out of town and do not have any of my files with me.) The reason given was this was a much stronger strain and would provide better turf quality,etc.  The course re-opened in Nov. 2000 and the turf on fairways and tees was pretty poor.  Greens were only OK but the grass in the greens has improved. The membership was told it would be much improved by this past season.  However it was not.  The reason now being given is that is because of the carts.  I feel this is too easy a culprit and that the staff and membership may be too undisciplined to properly direct cart traffic.
One group insists overseeding is necessary to handle the heavy winter play with carts and others are saying it is only because of the carts and overseeding is not necessary.  
I'm trying to learn about this so I can speak intelligently with a couple of friends on the Green committee.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Pat:  Thanks for your input it gives me a starting point and is helpful

Best
Dave Miller

[Dave_Miller]

Jimbo:  
There was no overseeding party because the overseeding was not done.  However the Bermuda is in very poor condition and the fairways particularly are in bad shape.  
Other courses very close by (anywhere from 1 to 5 miles are not experiencing the problems we are).
The Green Super and his outside consultant are blaming carts, I'm not blaming anyone but I know from experience carts can be managed to prevent damage and it is too easy to point to the carts and say they are to blame.
Unfortunately, as with a lot of Florida courses, there is no caddie program and carts become a necessity for most members.
Thanks for your help
Dave

[Jimbo]

Dave:

Traffic is a problem. Overseeding is a killer when combined with traffic.

I don't know how many rounds you do, I don't know if you have cartpaths, and I don't know if your membership will stay off the grass when excessively wet. I don't know your soils, and I don't know your budget.  I don't know if the reconstruction company was good, and I don't know if your superintendent is good.

I know that it ain't rocket science.  Its common sense. And if members would take the TIME to really understand agronomy (I mean like an 8 hour course), alot of grief and MONEY would be saved.

Has your greens committee invested any time outside of their monthly  huddles?

I'm sorry if this seems rude.  I have been witnessing the lynching of a friend of mine for a transition that he neither wanted nor had the support to acheive properly.

It seems to me that you should have good grass by this July.

If you don't overseed it will be good all year, every year.  Especially in South Florida.

[Dave_Miller]

Jimbo:
No one is out to lynch anyone.  That's easy to do.  Working with people and getting it right is the only way to go and it is a lot harder than just lynching someone.

The overseeding cannot be a problem because WE DON'T OVERSEED.  There has been no overseeding since I've been at this club (4yrs).
There never seemed to be a problem until this new supposed stronger strain of bermuda was put in and now the problem is being blamed on carts.

Here is the situation the club has 800 members with 45 holes.  Eighteen on the course I'm referring to and 27 at the other course comprised of three 9's.
The Green budget is not scrimped but is relatively high and set to provide optimum conditions.  The Club is not adverse to spending money. I do not have the numbers with me but can get them.
It is not difficult to get on either course but they do have tee times.
Unfortunately I don't know the soil conditions off the top of my head, don't know if the reconstructions company was any good but I have my doubts and don't know if I could say the super is any good.  He manicures the place well but I have my doubts about the ability to grow grass.
The Green Committee listens to the Super and his consultant and I don't know if they spend any time outside the monthly huddles
You're not being rude at all you're being very helpful.
I'm trying to learn so I can address the situation intelligently with the Green Comm.
Thanks
Best
Dave

[Jimbo]

Again sorry if I am being an ass.  We've posted over one another at the same time.

Here is how you could find out the real deal:

I would do a very strict comparison with the other clubs, compare:

age of course
budget
soil type
number of rounds per month and year
elevation (really, in south fla,2 feet can make a difference)
water source
whether you overseed

hope this helps Dave,
and good luck

Jim