Can American caddying be rejuvenated?

[David_Elvins]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.

What are you saying?  Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles or job prospects?

[Kyle Harris]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.

What are you saying?  Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?

No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.

[PCCraig]

Jack-

One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.

As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).

Pat,  I should know this but was that the year MJ played and Luke Donald won it? Hard to believe Luke outscored you. MJ shot about 90 as I recall. We shall see what you can shoot at Beverly when the weather breaks.                 Jack

Jack-

I think that was a year or two before that. If I remember correctly that was the last year it was the "Chicago Open."

Hope all is well down on the south side. Go Warriors! 

[J_ Crisham]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.

What are you saying?  Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?

No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.

Lets look at that theory. Assume 1000hrs per yr at $7 per hour=$7000 before taxes for a year .  Or you can work 4 months and possibly make 5K taxfree. Not to mention the intangibles of networking,free golf , clubs at the caddy banquet etc.  Thanks but from someone who has worked both jobs flipping burgers sucks.Sadly, I believe the teenagers working at the local Lowes store is soon to be replaced by the many out of work adults.        Jack  

[Kyle Harris]

Jack,

Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.

Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.

Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.

However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities. 

[Tom Walsh]

Jack-

One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.

that quote was also on the caddy ticket at Algonquin GC along with a reminder to the member to contribute to the Evan's Scholar Fund.

I do agree with the cultural observations regarding the caddy-

1. you need kids who need the money around and able to get to the course. (My family wasn't poor, we just didn't have any money There were lots of middle to lower middle class kids near our course

2. the choices teens have for summer are a lot more than I had. Parents seem much more involved in the planning.

Therefore along with the ubiquitous cart there are fewer caddies. Total rounds have been flat for some time, right? It can be expensive to take a caddy, players take them less and less...

I'm having a hard time making my point here but I think but the nature of the golf club experience may be lessened without the caddy, a link to golf's history. Discuss

[David_Elvins]

There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.

Are you sure about this?  You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?

Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.

What are you saying?  Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?

No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.

Sorry, didn't realise that "flipping burgers" was the "growth opportunity" you were talking about.  

I won't argue with your maths but I think you are wrong in assuming that kids will  be able to just get a job flipping burgers if they want one.  Whilst fast food specifically will do OK in a recession/depression other traditional teenage jobs in retail will not be there, causing a massive contraction in the market.  Not to mention the growth opportunity of vacation programs at major banks/stockbrokers/mining companies/corporations etc. that no doubt have recently been cut, or will  be.

[J_ Crisham]

Jack,

Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.

Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.

Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.

However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities. 

Kyle,    For starters, you don't have to double bag to make $ 100. We don't see doubles often at Beverly as we have a large caddy corp. As far as  the kids playing, they have the ability  to play in the evenings on the front nine if it isn't crowded. We have a few Monday outings but just a few.  Did you ever caddy? What a fun job it was. Let's agree to disagree, you can encourage kids to flip burgers and I'll suggest caddying. I haven't  typed this much since school so in the best interest of my fingers and my first patient tomorrow morning , I bid you a good night. Wish you well, Jack

[Kyle Harris]

Jack,

Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.

Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.

Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.

However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities. 

Kyle,    For starters, you don't have to double bag to make $ 100. We don't doubles often at Beverly as we have a large caddy corp. As far as  the kids playing, they have the ability  to play in the evenings on the front nine if it isn't crowded. We have a few Monday outings but just a few.  Did you ever caddy? What a fun job it was. Let's agree to disagree, you can encourage kids to flip burgers and I'll suggest caddying. I haven't  typed this much since school so in the best interest of my fingers and my first patient tomorrow morning , I bid you a good night. Wish you well, Jack

Jack,

I caddied for 3 years in High School and a "AA" caddie for two years. I was a caddiemaster for 2 summers in college and started a small but successful program with a predominately riding membership at a housing course. It seems like Beverly is a special case (as were the places I was involved with, one with a huge, successful caddy programs) and it's amazing that your guys get that much money and that much work. I only ever pulled down $100 as a "AA" but would make $50 or so per round as a "A" or "B" caddie.

That being said, these opportunities are few and far between but for a few lucky souls. I tried to bring friends up to caddy in the summer, but they were pursuing other opportunities that provided a more steady income. I just happened to love the game enough to look past the shortcomings, and there are plenty.

[Sam Maryland]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

33 years ago I bought my first bag of weed from a caddy at our club...

...I think Kyle's experience/description is more accurate than most of us would like to admit.

[Pat Burke]

what  are you guys missing that Mr. Doak , Cirba et al see so clearly  ,,,

where I grew up the poor kids caddied ,  the members sons who looped never made it , they had camp...music ...other interests ...we had to work  ,

not having children , I'm sure that I don't totally get it, but if I ruled the world they would hang out with their buddies and work , play ball, etc etc , and not  have appointments with  their personal trainers...LOL!  

I honestly think our experience was more fun and maybe more enriching

Where I grew up (now 46) the members sons HAD to caddy or could not play in the afternoon.  Juniors were not allowed to play until 2.  The caddie master made certain that we would all get out with early loops, we would run home, change and come back to play until dark.
Back then, caddy programs introduced many to the game, and taught them the rules and etiquette.  The club rules had the junior golfers EARNING their golf, not being entitled to it.  Junior programs are now the introduction to the game, and like many sports, the dream of a scholarship is the carrot dangled. 
The dream of competitive golf now keeps many of the potential young caddies from feeling they have the time to do it. 
The beauty of the Evans program is that hard work and great grades EARNS a reward (and an opportunity).  I don't care if it's caddying or burger flipping, earning it teaches great lessons.
Caddying, for me, taught me many lessons I used as a player (I actually like pro-ams! ) and now as a teacher.  I was always completely comfortable talking with and working with anyone, regardless of position in life, and I owe a lot of that to the very successful people I grew up working for as a caddy.

[Dan Herrmann]

Pat Burke - you grew up in a wonderful atmosphere.  Thanks for sharing you're wonderful experience!

[Paul OConnor]

Thanks Jack for carrying the Evans Scholars/WGA banner.  I know what a great program it is, because I was an Evans Scholar out of Sunset Ridge CC.  The Evans Scholarship is easily the best college scholarship program in the country.  Four years, room and tuition, 100% paid.   Cannot be beat.

 Every year, the WGA holds numerous Evans Scholar Interviews, where the Scholarship finalists come before a group of WGA Directors, Alums and others to present themselves as candidates.  These are high school seniors, who take the podium in front of 30-70 men and women, and take questions from anyone in the room.  The quality of the kids at these meetings is impressive.  If you ever worry about the sad state of America's youth today, one of these meetings is about as uplifting and inspiring a day as I have ever had.  Most of these kids have come from very difficult financial and family situations, have managed to assert themselves academically, avoided all the usual neighborhood pitfalls, and present themselves with poise, confidence, and humor.  Not many burger flippers doing that. 

For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math.  If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50.  If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost.  The benefits for that money are;  get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age.  All that for $2,500!  For me, its a bargain. 

Paul O'Connor

[Tom Walsh]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

33 years ago I bought my first bag of weed from a caddy at our club...

...I think Kyle's experience/description is more accurate than most of us would like to admit.

Hey I believe it. No doubt. I didn't see it at our club, but I'm not naive. Still--I saw most of the weed smoking in the context of the public school I attended, not the caddy yard. My son busses tables at the club where I worked as a kid and will caddy in the spring. I like the fact that he has a job! Good people. The fact that he works where I worked--gravy

Tom out 

[Jason Topp]

For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math.  If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50.  If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost.  The benefits for that money are;  get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age.  All that for $2,500!  For me, its a bargain. 

Paul O'Connor

Paul -

I agree with the benefits you list - although career caddies take much of the luster away from the benefits to kids argument. 

I also disagree with posts suggesting it is difficult to get kids to caddie.  Our training classes each year have large numbers of kids.

However, for the extra $2500 you list ($3500 without the cart), I can play another 50 rounds at very good public courses and get more than double the exercise carrying my bag. Alternately I could take a golf trip to Scotland.  Given those comparisons, I believe very few golfers will consider the $2500 a "bargain" in any economic climate. 

In order for caddying to be "rejuvenated" a caddie needs to be perceived as delivering value commensurate with the cost.  I do not think "good of the game" motives will ever expand caddying beyond what it is now.

[Paul OConnor]

"However, for the extra $2500 you list ($3500 without the cart), I can play another 50 rounds at very good public courses and get more than double the exercise carrying my bag. Alternately I could take a golf trip to Scotland.  Given those comparisons, I believe very few golfers will consider the $2500 a "bargain" in any economic climate. "


If it was as simple as just putting ones own obvious self interest first, sure, why spend it on someone else.  The benefits are "for the greater good."  Perhaps a theme that will gain additional traction in the coming years. 

Paul O'Connor

[PCCraig]

For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math.  If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50.  If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost.  The benefits for that money are;  get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age.  All that for $2,500!  For me, its a bargain. 

Paul O'Connor

Paul -

I agree with the benefits you list - although career caddies take much of the luster away from the benefits to kids argument. 

I think it is interesting to note that Chicago really is one of the last areas that kids are still the primary form of caddy. The "pro jock" of the american east wouldn't make it in Chicago because of the WGA and its efforts to send kids to college.

Personally when I take a caddy now, I would always rather have a young "b" caddy and pay him double his rate, then have a "honor" caddy and be thinking of all the things he is doing wrong. Maybe that is just me being an old caddy, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

[Jason Topp]

If it was as simple as just putting ones own obvious self interest first, sure, why spend it on someone else.  The benefits are "for the greater good."  Perhaps a theme that will gain additional traction in the coming years. 

Paul O'Connor

Paul:

Perhaps I am jaded but I believe market forces win out in the long run.  If people place $70 per round value on the greater good, perhaps caddying will expand. However, when cost is listed as one of the primary factors driving people away from the game, I think self interest is going to be a very significant impediment to widespread expansion of caddie ranks.

[Dan Herrmann]

Back to the original question - Can American caddying be rejuvenated?

I sure don't know, but let me tell you - a good caddy makes the game a LOT more fun.   I've been lucky enough to have great caddies at some of our contry's best courses and they made a tremendous improvement to the experience. 

[Chuck Brown]

Kyle, I'm not following you at all.

If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate. 

If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree.  It has to be worth their time. 

If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is),  it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.

But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members.  to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.

You disagree with that?

Chuck,  As I stated, the Evans Schoarship is privately funded. Aren't Pell Grants paid with my tax dollars? As I recall these are small sums of money as well, not full rides to college as the Evans is.    Jack             

Absolutely!  That was part of the point I was making!  The Evans Scholars program is small by comparison to the humongous world of higher education funding, but it is also serving what we all understand is a very tiny group of applicants in comparision to the rest of higher education...  For a kid who fits the right demographic, the Evans Scholars program can be an absolutely huge boost to his future.

[Jason Topp]

Personally when I take a caddy now, I would always rather have a young "b" caddy and pay him double his rate, then have a "honor" caddy and be thinking of all the things he is doing wrong. Maybe that is just me being an old caddy, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
[/quote]

I completely agree Pat.  I did not caddy at a club as a kid but I did have an experienced amateur competitor hire me to caddy for him at state tournaments.  I absolutely loved the experience and particularly appreciated patient tutelage from co-competitors in the middle of competition.

I try and start out with a brand new caddie each year and try and use that caddie every time out.  It is a thrill to see that caddie return the next year with well-established confidence on the course.  

[Paul OConnor]

Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies.  You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months.  A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.  

Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services.  Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.

Paul O'Connor

[Jason Topp]

Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies.  You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months.  A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.  

Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services.  Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.

Paul O'Connor

Paul - If customers appreciated and valued the service sufficient to bring in a supply of caddies, mandatory caddie rules would be unnecessary.  What is your stance on such programs?

[Paul OConnor]

If people object to a clubs mandatory caddy rules, perhaps they should join other clubs, or organize the membership to eliminate such rules. 

Paul O'Connor

[jeffwarne]

I'm not a fan of mandatory caddies as long as the players are walking, but I do recognize the importance of such rules.
Why should someone subsidize a program he doesn't want?
It would seem to me that if 40 caddies are needed in a mandatory setting, the # needed in a non mandatory setting could be determined based on play patterns or requests.
There are always players who could go either way and be the "swing" guys.

BTW, we have mandatory caddies as its' a wealthy club and difficult walk, but our demographics are unique.
Players can carry their own bags after 3 but only one or two ever has.