Can American caddying be rejuvenated?

[TEPaul]

Bill Shamleffer:

That is one explanatory and beautiful post about caddying!! Do you think something or some things have changed in this world enough where what you experienced that way can't really get rejuventated somehow?

And if you think they can be, please, let's have some ideas from you!

For me, I never caddied, not once, except the one time I carried the bag for Charlie Bolling in a US Open qualifer here in Philadelphia maybe 25 years ago. Thirty six holes, the first round at Philadelphia Country club where he was medalist. Then over to Gulph Mills, our club, where I guess we both felt qualifying had to be a lock. I just don't know what the hell happened at our home club but everything came unraveled and I was just mortified---I felt it must have been my fault, and it probably was.

Nevertheless, the bond or symbiosis between a player and caddie who really understand one another is just pretty ineffable, in my opinon. I've seen it in my life and it's just beautiful, the list is long but some great examples in my experiences---Chet Walsh and his decades long caddie we call Petro, or Marucci and Faz---what a great amateur run those two have had over the years. I've gotten to know so many caddies in my career in golf who are just great fellows. It's a funny thing, hard to generalize about.

Mike DiGangi, if you're out there and you happen to read this---I love you guy---we sure did have some times together, didn't we? The highlight for me with you was when we won that Philadephia player/caddy better ball tournament, the one and only time we did that! What could top that?

[C. Squier]

Tom P:

Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart.  I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ... it really saves our brains by not having to figure out where to put the ugly paths, and it encourages walking and/or caddie programs.

Tom, do you think the day will ever come that an architect can rise to such popularity that they could take a stand and only take jobs that build walking only courses?  It would appear to me that some have gotten to the point that the housing developer gets the steering wheel after the architect, but walking only isn't there yet.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom P:
Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart.  I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ..."


Tom Doak:

That is something I sure never heard before but think is a unique and heartfelt idea. That suggestion definitely made this thread worth posting even if no one else made a single response.

Thank you

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been looking for a good place away from the daunting 6.082,308,0402 posts of the Cobb's Creek to post some of the wonderful footage of the late Tilly DePalma, who was 97 years old during this filming last summer, and who was Joe Coble's (US Publinx champion in 1924 and later professional) caddy at Cobb's Creek and elsewhere during the 1920's.  

If anyone doubts the value of caddie programs, I can tell you that Mr. DePalma carried those lessons across decades of an incredible life;

 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you for sharing Jaeger.
Sounds like you'd be great to spend the afternoon with at Quaker Ridge.
Did you ever caddie for Rosie?

The $20 is to keep 'em out of a cart - not keep career caddies.  Your skills work at few and far between locations.

If they have internet parking in NYC I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to have an on-line caddy program at my club.

How much would it cost to keep players out of a cart at Pebble?  $400 walking $550 cart?

[Jason Topp]

As to the original question I think the answer is no.  I enjoy using caddies but think they provide little value to me when I play golf at my club.

If one really wanted to rejuvinate caddying, a club should (1) reduce the fee, including tip, to $25 and (2) to the extent possible get rid of carts.

I don't see either of those happening.

In order to see widespread caddy programs, people need to take caddies because they are worth the money rather than out of altruism.  I've played my course 200 times.  I do not need a caddy to tell me where to hit the ball.  I do not need someone to carry my bag (in fact I prefer to carry it myself because carrying is better exercise).  I do not need someone to rake bunkers or fix divots.  Thus, the $50 bucks I pay for a mandatory caddie each round is prettty much pure philanthropy.  I wouldn't be surprised if some take carts just to avoid the fee.

I think everyone has the ideal of a raw junior high kid, showing up at a country club, learning from kindly members as he or she makes some mistakes and matures into someone who loves golf, gets exposed to a segment of society he or she would not otherwise see and grows into a person that loves the game, makes friends and has more opportunities outside the game.  I try to make that work each year but the batting average is pretty low.

We have 20-30 such kids show up at my club each year.  We have a relatively small membership,  70 percent of the membership rides and a core of 10 or so caddies takes many of the prime loops that exist.  The experienced caddies do a good job, but most are well past college age and are making a living from the regular groups that play daily.  Thus, I would guess 2-3 caddies stick out of the original group each year.


As a result, many of the new kids get few opportunities to carry, tire of waiting around and then stop showing up.  A $25 fee would give them more opportunities because (1)the price would be equal to a cart and (2) no one could make a living off of caddying thereby allowing the younger kids more of the prime loops.
 

[Damon Groves]

Every now and then my buddy and I play this junker Par 3 course at night, it has lights, with four clubs in our Sunday bag and a beer or two. We play as many holes as we can until the lights are turned off. Usually 36 to 54 holes. We have a blast.

Last time I was there I was blown away. There were carts available and even more incredibly people taking them. Carts on a Par 3 course? Are you kidding me? Very, very sad. And we wonder why Americans are getting obese.

Sadly I think this answers the question.

[Marty Bonnar]

P.S.  I could not recommend more to any aspiring architect the experience of caddying for a summer.  I only did it so I could see The Old Course at St. Andrews on an everyday basis, but along the way I learned what a huge variety of players there are who love the game in spite of their ability level ... and that THEY are the retail golfers Mike Keiser thinks about.

Never a truer word spoken.

I think this is one aspect of a golf architects education that is hugely underestimated. A keen awareness of the w-i-d-e variety of golfers mindsets is key to understanding what kind and style of challenges to offer them in a given context, i.e. 'Championship', members course, resort and so on.

After the MSc course, I spent a couple of years trying to get our architectural practice up and running. When work was slack (nearly always!), I caddied at Kingsbarns every day. There I not only got to see, and feel under my feet, how cleverly designed and properly maintained a facility it is, but also got to meet maybe a couple of thousand or so golfers on pilgrimage to the Home of Golf.

They gave me insights into golfers heads that contribute hugely to my design philosophies. Believe me, there were as many differing viewpoints on golf as there were golfers, from the keenest of low-handicappers needing to know every nuance of the course, to the most laid-back partying groups only intent on having a laugh, smoking a few stogies and guzzling good Malt. I met 'em all and each and every one of them added to my appreciation of what kind of 'Product' should best be offered to which particluar range of clientele. Of course, the toughest thing about all of that is trying to please all of the people, all of the time!!!

FBD.

[jeffwarne]

We have 20-30 such kids show up at my club each year.  We have a relatively small membership,  70 percent of the membership rides and a core of 10 or so caddies takes many of the prime loops that exist.  The experienced caddies do a good job, but most are well past college age and are making a living from the regular groups that play daily.

As a result, many of the new kids get few opportunities to carry, tire of waiting around and then stop showing up.  A $25 fee would give them more opportunities because (1)the price would be equal to a cart and (2) no one could make a living off of caddying thereby allowing the younger kids more of the prime loops. Thus, I would guess 2-3 caddies stick out of the original group each year.

 

Jason,
Those are good observations.

One of the difficulties at higher end clubs is that the members get used to "career caddies" who guide them around and basically give them a playing lesson. Many of these caddies are assistant pros in the summer and caddie in the winter at high end Florida Clubs.
It's an uphill battle assigning a polite, well trained kid (who's not a two handicap)to many members when they had a pro caddying for them all winter. Sadly, caddying has become a career for many of them and often comes with the bad habits of an itinerant lifestyle.
Many end up caddying year round as at the better clubs they can make more in cash than they ever could at a mediocre assistant's job.

We have made great headway with college golfers who are excellent caddies but I'm afraid the money they make in the summer may be seductive enough to keep them from moving onto more stable, career oriented employment.
Ideally, I'd like to get more high school kids involved but it seems like they have year round sports distracting them and i frankly have a hard time recruiting them even at enviable wages-and then there's convincing certain members that they don't need a pro to be their caddy every time.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bill Shamleffer:

That is one explanatory and beautiful post about caddying!! Do you think something or some things have changed in this world enough where what you experienced that way can't really get rejuventated somehow?

And if you think they can be, please, let's have some ideas from you!

Two things immediately pop into my head that have caused the decline of caddying.

Number 1 (by a long shot) carts.  I have nothing more to add to this item that has not already been said hundreds of times.

Number two, the locations of clubs.  The course I caddied at was in the middle of a dense suburb, so hundred of kids lived within a mile radius of this course.  Also the neighborhood was primarily middle class, so most of the kids caddying did not come from families that belonged to country clubs and did not go to summer camps.  Thus, caddying became their de facto summer camp.  Many of today's new private courses are built further out in the suburbs, in communities where land use is much more spread out, and where hundreds of available caddies do not live a short bike ride from the course.


Now I can not undue either of the above items.  However, I do have a couple of thoughts for anyone serious about increasing the number of caddies.  Obviously the membership needs to be committed to the use of caddies (either by less use of carts, or in conjunction with cart use).

But another thought is to have a regional initiative.  Either by a consortium of clubs, or by a local golf association.  A quality caddie program MUST have a quality caddie master.  But if no single club can support 100 or 200 caddies, perhaps two to four clubs can support 40 to 50 caddies each.  In which case one caddie master may be able to oversee the caddie programs at all of the clubs.  A responsible college kid could be the on site assistant at each club, while the caddie master creates an excellent and effective recruiting, training, supervisory program.

An additional benefit to this approach is that these clubs may b able to share these caddies.  For instance when one of these blubs is having a big member-guest weekend, and would like additional extra caddies, it could be pre-arranged to have some of the regular caddies from the other course to caddie for that weekend at that club.

All of this will take real commitment from members at the clubs and/or at the local golf associations.  This will include some financial commitment to a good caddie master.  It will also require some time commitment from some of the members at the clubs.  However, I think if the benefits I presented in my initial e-mail were presented, the commitment could develop.  Also, I am certain that if my club wanted some extra volunteers to assist from outside of the club, they would find quite a few of my fellow former caddies willing to give a few hours a month to these efforts.

The guys I caddied with, and the guys that caddied a few years before me all loved their years in the caddie yard so much, that when one of the other caddies organized a "caddie reunion" a few years ago at the local Legion Club, almost a hundred former caddies all showed up to remember some of the best times of their youth.

All a club would need to do is to offer their club as a location for a once a year caddie reunion (even if these were caddied from other course), and in one day they could find many willing to volunteer a few hours a month to help create a new or rejuvenate an old caddie program.

When the Western Open was in St. Louis this past fall, hundreds of Evan Scholar alumni volunteered to caddie in the pro-am.  So that is one indication of their love of caddying.

If a club did something as simple as offer their course and clubhouse for one day a year to former caddies, I believe the response would be enormous and as I said quite a few willing volunteers could likely be identified on the spot.  What if that club were to get 8 former caddies to commit to volunteer 10 hours a month in exchange for free use of the course on Monday afternoons?  Something on these lines could be very workable.

[jeffwarne]

All good ideas, but in this era of budgets being SLASHED, not increased, one has to understand that managing a legion of 30-80 caddies is a labor intensive job that does not come without its' share of aggravation, time, energy and huge committment by clubs and their key staff.
Anyone who's ever managed a large staff knows the baggage and increased workload that comes with an increase in personnel.
Those carts rarely have any attitude problems or complaints

I think it would be hard to convince a club to DECREASE revenues by reducing cart usage and INCREASE expenses by managing and training a full corps of caddies.

It can be done, but requires a committment by clubs that I believe few are prepared or able to give.

[Bill Shamleffer]

All good ideas, but in this era of budgets being SLASHED, not increased, one has to understand that managing a legion of 30-80 caddies is a labor intensive job that does not come without its' share of aggravation, time, energy and huge committment by clubs and their key staff.
Anyone who's ever managed a large staff knows the baggage and increased workload that comes with an increase in personnel.
Those carts rarely have any attitude problems or complaints

I think it would be hard to convince a club to DECREASE revenues by reducing cart usage and INCREASE expenses by managing and training a full corps of caddies.

It can be done, but requires a committment by clubs that I believe few are prepared or able to give.

I can not disagree with any of the above statements.

HOWEVER

With the recent abundance of negative news dealing with the management of the financial and other business sectors, some private clubs might be able to justify some extra efforts towards an increased caddie progam that will benefit the kids and families of the local community.

I agree it is still tough sell.  But not impossible.

[PCCraig]

This really has been a great thread to read...and has brought up a lot of great memories. Perhaps my first post on the subject was more geared toward Tom’s first post and the questions he was raising. But inspired by Bill S’s great post about his caddy experience, maybe I can go into mine as well.

I actually began my golf industry experience when I was 15 at the local municipal course down the street (where Shivas was a one time frequenter) working the pro shop desk. That eventually led to cart, driving rage (I was the guy getting hit by golf balls in the range machine), starter (“no sir I can not accept $2 to get you out as a single on a Saturday afternoon in July”), golf club repair, ranger, and pro shop. That was a great place to work for a young guy in high school with the professionals that were great to work with and that became legit friends. With working there I got free golf anytime of the day (which in the fall senior year I could actually get in 15-18 holes with a cart before 2nd period started at 8:40 and I had to get to class), free lessons, and equipment at cost. This all ended actually when one July Saturday night the entire 1920’s era wood clubhouse burnt to the ground thanks to a tiki-torch that wasn’t put out and tipped over onto the side of the building. After that hours and staff were cut and it wasn’t ever really the same from that point.

The next summer after that I started working down the street at The Glen Club in Glenview, IL (a 2001 Tom Fazio design on an old Navy Airstrip). When I first started I was working the bag drop and range and all the good stuff I had been doing before, but also starting caddying 3 or 4 times a week. Aside from the occasional loop for one of the professionals at the club, caddying was new to me but being a competitive golfer I felt I understood what a golfer wanted and it came pretty naturally to me.

To give you a profile of the caddy program at the Glen, it consisted of maybe 60 caddies, but most were part time and maybe a strong core of 20 caddies that were there almost every day. Most of the loops were “on call” meaning they were assigned the day before so the caddy could show up an hour or so before the loop went off and didn’t have to wait around. This was nice and it made your hourly wage a lot better compared to many private clubs. Most loops were divided into either “members” (men and women who purchase corporate memberships but played the majority of their golf there) or straight public golfers. The Glen is the most expensive public golf course in Chicago to play at with cart on the weekend around $200…and there is absolutely no twilight rate. (Caddies could play every day after the last tee time for free, which was usually 3pm). The majorities of the golfers here were well off and enjoyed taking caddies as part of the experience. My fee was always $30 a bag + tip, which would usually equate to 100% tip, at the bare minimum I was walking out of there with $110-$130/a loop. Granted there were only rare days you could get 36 holes in that was and is still darn good money. Right up until 2006 when I was coming back for a week here and there from school I was making a almost standard rate of $150 for a double bag. The prototypical “Glen Club” loop was a group that played every single Saturday at 8am. They would show up at about 7:56, get in a cart, hand the starter the $200 or so in cash per player and tell him to go into the clubhouse and pay for them, and they would take two caddies to cart chase for them. We would stand one caddy on each side of the fairway to spot balls. It was the best and worst loop there, but they paid well and you would make $200 per caddy for doing a good job.

While out at school I started caddying at The Country Club-Brookline…in the caddy world the polar opposite of the Glen Club. My first loop out there the caddy master said I would start as a “B” caddy because it was my first time out there. My first loop was also the president of the club at that time…talk about pressure. When I finished my loop that day the member looked at my ticket (which was color coded to your rank) and said “why in the world are you a B caddy?” He proceeded to tell the caddy master that I was one of the best caddies he has had there and that I should be immediately promoted to an honor caddy….so I had that going for me. TCC was a totally different world for me, instead of call ahead loops, I rode my bike from my apartment on Hemenway St in downtown Boston uphill to Brookline at 4:30am on Friday, Saturday, and Sundays (and also afternoon loops after morning summer classes during the week). Half of the caddies there were grizzled professionals that had done stints looping all over the country for the better part of 30 years, the other half young kids who could care less if they got out. The pay was much lower than in Chicago, it was a flat rate except for tournaments, but any cash in the pocket of a college kid is literal gold.

For as different as it was, it was the first time I ever really fell in love with a golf course. It was the first time that I completely separated the golf course from the club, its members, the politics, and its history, and saw a living breathing piece of art. The more I saw the course, the more things I saw in it. The Mondays that I would get out of class at 11, strap my bag on my back, and ride down a traffic filled street to go play as many holes as I could before dark (homework be damned) is something I will never forget. 

For all the talk about how expensive caddies are and whether or not they are worth it to the player, remember that there are kids out there that really love it. It’s a job that when you come home you are tired, beat up, and sunburned…but you really earned that money.

That money I earned literally helped put me through college, it paid my rent, it bought my groceries. And now that I have a full time desk job I look back at those time with fondness. It would be unfortunate that the industry would disappear, because working in the golf industry as a young man taught me a lot about life and is a great avenue toward greater things.

[archie_struthers]

 

Tom Doak...you are one bright dude...and Mr. Cirba , thank you.

We can't get rid of the carts ,,,so we need cart jockeys ...it will work...Tom.  we both agree , it;s the kids  12-15 ,,,they are the future

[Kyle Harris]

It will absolutely never be the case that caddying can compete with other extra-curricular activities offered by various organizations and schools.

Are we really so delusion to assume that a 13 year old person looking to prepare themselves for college is going to see caddying as viable alternative to:

Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs

Seriously!?

What bright, intelligent and eager individual will want to be around the type of people that a good portion of caddy programs attract? And EVERYONE who has caddied and laughs off the whole, "I learned to smoke, curse and play cards" attitude in the caddy yard knows precisely what I'm talking about. More importantly, what type of parents would want their children to be around these people given the above alternatives?

What college is going to look at an application where the major outside activity was caddying? Especially as compared to other candidates with some of the above listed activities on their applications...

[Mike Sweeney]

I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.

I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!

[PCCraig]

Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs

I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?

[Kyle Harris]

Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs

I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?

No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.

You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.

[Tom Dunne]

Kyle,

You can participate in other activities and still spend some time learning whatever it is you're going to learn as a caddie. I didn't list my caddie experience on my college application. Just because something isn't part of your "CV" doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And I still think a kid's summers should involve a certain amount of idleness. I probably would have burned out during the school year if I hadn't had lazy summers waiting for loops, or blowing off a day lugging a bag on the course to go swimming or something. I was definitely one of those kids that Pat Craig described--didn't care whether or not I got a loop. But my parents insisted I have a job of some kind and I just knew that it beat flipping burgers at BK.

But the bottom line is, I was inoculated enough into the golf world that after college (when I didn't play at all) it became something that I wanted to spend my time and money doing, and it eventually became my career, too. But I definitely didn't go into it as a teenager with that as a "goal". 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

You can participate in other activities and still spend some time learning whatever it is you're going to learn as a caddie. I didn't list my caddie experience on my college application. Just because something isn't part of your "CV" doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And I still think a kid's summers should involve a certain amount of idleness. I probably would have burned out during the school year if I hadn't had lazy summers waiting for loops, or blowing off a day lugging a bag on the course to go swimming or something. I was definitely one of those kids that Pat Craig described--didn't care whether or not I got a loop. But my parents insisted I have a job of some kind and I just knew that it beat flipping burgers at BK.

Tom,

For the record, I was a caddie and I am an Eagle Scout.

Looking back, the only real experience I gained as a caddy that is useful for me today is because I've continued in the golf industry.

The minute caddying conflicted with my other interests in Scouting, I left. It wasn't worth it for me to be around some of the people in the caddy yard when I was given opportunities to manage and lead groups of people.

I think caddying can complement other organizations, but it certainly cannot compete with them so long as the short-term interest of the membership and club supersedes the long-term interest of the caddy.

[Tom Dunne]

Kyle,

I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.

Very good, in fact. However, this sort of attitude does not lend itself to strong, sustainable caddy programs.

[Tom Dunne]

Kyle,

I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.

Very good, in fact. However, this sort of attitude does not lend itself to strong, sustainable caddy programs.

Maybe, but you'd have to elaborate....

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

A number of caddies grabbing loops "here and there" are not steady enough to ensure a strong caddy program. First, there has to be a steady supply of caddies in order for members to rely on the program. If there cannot be a consistent core of golfers, the caddy program will never amount to anything more than a triviality at a club.

Secondly, caddying as a job does not offer a consistent paycheck. It's too dependent on frequency of play and weather. No club I'm aware of pays caddies to sit around and wait, either.

As such, what types of people are more likely to be drawn to caddying? People who are looking to make a meaningful contribution to the economy or people who have proven to not be hirable elsewhere?

[PCCraig]

Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs

I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?

No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.

You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.

I didn't know about 6th grade boy scouts are leading successful professionals through woods on their important weekend camping trips.

There is a big difference between a job and a extra after school activity. The sad thing for the kids and parents today is that they don't see the difference.