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Mike Policano

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2009, 04:42:37 PM »
Tom,

I am generally a proponent of caddie programs.  The concern I have is that the current economic conditions will not be favorable to caddie programs.  I see a period where many users of caddies have less cash than they had last year.  This will lead to less rounds obviously, as has been stated elsewhere here.

Members may pressure their clubs to relax their mandatory caddie programs in order to drive more rounds through the club.  This would lead to more pro shop and food & beverage activity, but less caddie activity.  Add to this that we may see more older caddies as people turn to caddying to pick up some extra cash.  This will lead to less rounds per caddie and may discourage caddies who rely primarily on caddie fees.

What are your thoughts on this?



Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2009, 04:49:48 PM »
I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.

There's another good reason besides $$ people are leery of caddies---intimidation.  They don't want their game on display to what they feel might be a judgemental outsider.  What they of course don't realize is, that no matter how bad they are, the caddie has seen others that are far worse!

And Chris Cupit---the $ figure doesn't change for you in your example regarding a day at your first-class club, but don't most caddies double-bag?  So--for the same effort and hours you describe, he actually walks with more like $290 for the day?  Which makes it a far more attractive proposition...

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2009, 05:20:08 PM »
Speaking as one who wants to like the institution of the caddy, I must honestly ask 'why should I care?' Someone please tell me what I am missing. I've never had a caddy, nor ever caddied (save for carrying the pro's bag for a state open qualifying round once) so I have a tough time understanding what the big deal is. Why should someone who's never had someone caddy for him ever start in the first place?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2009, 05:26:19 PM »
Charlie,

Forgetting the potential camaraderie example that sometimes develops between player and caddie, the simplest reason is that walking a golf course unencumbered by one's golf bag is a tremendous pleasure.  And while the same thing is possible (and way cheaper) by walking yourself while someone else is riding, and the rider also has your bag strapped on the cart, the give-and-take aspect of conversation is only possible when both (or all) parties are walking--either carrying their own, of having a caddie do it for them.

C. Squier

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2009, 05:52:18 PM »

When the costs of a caddy are much greater than a cart ..the caddy eventually gets phased out ...it's a fact at all but the richest clubs ..I'd like to see a caddy get say $5 a bag  from the  group  and  be a FORECADDY with duties first and formost find all golf balls , keep an eye on everyones clubs , rake the bunkers,  know the yardages for second and third shots  etc etc.   generally just help the group get around and enjoy the day

this would work at almost all clubs ...and perhaps start a whole new legion of loopers


$20 a loop to forecaddy?  New legion of loopers?  Maybe if this was 1975, but I don't think $5 an hour plus waiting around for a loop is going to inspire anyone to work for well under minimum wage.  I agree that younger caddies are underpaid, but they are going to cost more than a cart, unless cart fees drastically change. 

You're not the only one though.  I brought 2 guests out to my club last year and had an older member join us.  Our forecaddy was great, but unfortunately spent most of his time tending to the older member.  At the end of the round the member gave me $5 and told me to settle up w/ the caddy for him as he scooted off.....needless to say, I dug into my own pocket and won't be playing with him again. 

I think the biggest problem is the whole tipping issue.  Just make it a flat fee for the caddy, no tipping involved.  No teenager deserves over $100 for 4 hours of work, but neither do they deserve just $40.  Put a set amount on the loop and set realistic expectations, both from the caddy and the player. The guy who plays 3 times a year, but drops $150 on a kid for caddying ruins it for the guys who play 100 times a year and wants a caddy day in and day out.  When a 15 year old looks at you cross-eyed when they're *only* making $15-$20 an hour, that's when things are out of whack.  Sure beats bagging groceries. 

Carl Rogers

Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2009, 05:53:47 PM »
I grew up around Boston (Needham exactly) and caddying at Wellesley Country Club was my introduction to the game.  I can not say that I have an abundance of fond memories of it, as a sizable percentage of the membership treated the caddy with severe indifference (or so is my memory).  We were a family of modest means and I could earn some money to which was mine to do with as I pleased.

With the golf cart and all the institutional. organizational & economic umphh behind it as well as many kids in many families that just have to stick there hand out for some $, I should think that the caddy is about dead barring some kind of very severe recession or the environmental abolition of the cart.

I stand corrected if needed.

Chris Cupit

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2009, 06:03:22 PM »
I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.

There's another good reason besides $$ people are leery of caddies---intimidation.  They don't want their game on display to what they feel might be a judgemental outsider.  What they of course don't realize is, that no matter how bad they are, the caddie has seen others that are far worse!

And Chris Cupit---the $ figure doesn't change for you in your example regarding a day at your first-class club, but don't most caddies double-bag?  So--for the same effort and hours you describe, he actually walks with more like $290 for the day?  Which makes it a far more attractive proposition...

Yes.  Most of the time the caddies do try to carry a double and it works great if you have four.  Sometimes there are three and then most foursomes will walk the first 18 and ride the second 18 and one caddie will leave (after hs $150 day) and the other will forecaddie for the foursome.

Don't ge me wrong I think the caddies do fine--most are young kids and it is a great outdoor way to help pay for school or whatever.  There are some guys for whom it is a big source of income and I was just trying to make the point that it is hard to pay any less for this amenity and at the current cost it is hard for most to justify--caddy programs face a tough future.

Sam Morrow

Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2009, 07:01:04 PM »
If I owned a club pull carts would be $5, Caddies $20 + tip and carts $50 per person - unless disabled - there would be a handful of single rider ones.
The green fee would be about $40.
There would be no cart paths.
The caddies would get some lessons, playing privileges, range balls and free sodas.
Cheers





The problem is that it makes to much sense to work.  I think we need something like that though Mike.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2009, 07:19:45 PM »
I love caddies! and I am one myself. I spent this past summer looping at Quaker Ridge, and had the best summer of my life. I was the first one there, arrive at 6am to be the first on the sign in list, and the last one to leave every day. I quickly worked my way up and was one of the top caddies by the end of the summer.

At Quaker, members are required to take caddies until 3pm every day, although carts are allowed for those with medical reasons. Even when members were in carts, a fore-caddy was required because it speeds up play, but because caddies are relying on these loops as income... most of them paid full fee even when riding.

There is no way that having a caddy doesn't speed up the round. Normally we had 2 caddies in every group, one grabbing the pin and reading greens, while the other one drops off drivers at the next tee and goes off to fore-caddy. In general you would alternate who grabs the pine, but the key is to work as a team. Both caddies shouldn't be raking green-side bunkers, we would signal to each other, so one person grabs the pin, the other takes care of the bunkers, and then hurries ahead to the next fairway. In some cases, if one caddy isn't comfortable on greens, then he will go ahead all day.

Also, this summer (my first summer) the club started using the laser guns that give exact yardage to every pin. While I resisted at first, they absolutely speed up the game even more and are pretty accurate. I found they work best in combination with the markers, so i give the players a more accurate reading from the center of the green.

For the most part I found that the older guys, the career caddies, were the best, and most numerous at Quaker. Unfortunately I found that a lot of times, the player would be intimidated by them, having a man the same age or older carrying your bag in the hot sun can be a little odd, and thats understandable. Then there are kids, who sign up because they need money for school, and discover this great game, play with mixed sets the caddy master puts together for them, and are always begging to play. I found that these kids are often very good, but are often to shy to speak up even though they are probably better than their player. The guys who showed up to make a little extra cash on the weekends were hit or miss. But the kids who got the job because daddy knew a member of the club were the worst, they were oblivious to what was going on 90% of the time.

As I'm sure you have figured out, I absolutely loved caddying, and not just because of the pay, which was unbelievable. If I went home with less than $150 in my pocket I was unhappy. But there is just something about being out there, pulling clubs, reading greens, that I enjoy. After a summer on the job you have a better understanding of the "average golfer", and I recommend picking up a loop to every architect. Also there is not a doubt in my mind that having a caddy makes you a better player... but I probably wouldn't caddy for $20, and there would be no such thing as a career caddy for $20, how can you expect some of these guys to put food on the table for their kids at $20? If you want caddying to die, drop the fees to $20!

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2009, 08:01:07 PM »
Just another thought on this $20 caddy...

On a 4 hour round, thats $5 an hour, almost $2 bellow minimum wage!

or

20/18 = about $1 a hole... I wouldn't carry someone's golf bag 500 yards down the first fairway for $1 let alone do that 18 times! my grand mother would give at least a 5 dollar bill and a pinch on the cheek!

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2009, 08:13:03 PM »
Thanks Joel, it's a good reason, but for good or ill, a trolley can accomplish nearly the same thing.

What's more, the caddy is just such a foreign concept to me (as is the concierge, the masseuse, the valet etc.) that I don't quite know what I'd be mourning if it was lost. Like the other examples, I've never employed a caddy, and I quite likely never will if the caddy is going away as quickly as those here seem to believe.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Abe Summers

Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2009, 08:21:05 PM »
According to this inflation calculator, if you paid $1 for a caddie in 1950, it would be equal to paying $8.89 today. (http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html)

Maybe you were misremembering the date and it was 1935?  (I know we have some veterans on the site  :D)  If so, your dollar then stretches to $15.81 in 2009!!

We have 120 caddies at my resort near Shanghai.  Caddying is considered an excellent job over here for young women.  We have about 5 guys and 115 young women working the bags.  The guys usually end up branching out into starters and marshals; at our club all caddies may play for free on Mondays when the course is closed to members after passing an exam, but usually only the guys take advantage of this.  The young women will stay for a few years if they have the opportunity.  Usually tip is about $14 for 18 holes; taking a caddie is mandatory.

Personally I enjoy going out on Mondays without any caddie but I am constantly reminded by the little things I see that these young women are the big breadwinners in the family.

C. Squier

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2009, 08:27:31 PM »
For us in the Chicago area, it would mean the Evans Scholar program would be lost.  We have caddies from all walks of life, from kids who don't have to work at all to kids who hand their daily tips over to mom and dad to help pay the bills.  It's a great way for kids to make a really good paycheck during the summer, make some pretty good contacts if they hang out long enough and possibly get a ticket to a school most could never afford.  

As a member, I get the benefit of having a caddy program but it's also great to catch up w/ the kids after another year of school to see what they're up to.  Most if not all are very appreciative of their jobs and the opportunities that can be found in it.  And there is not much better than 4 players heading out w/ 4 caddies on a weekend morning.  I don't think caddies are going the way of the dodo, but I think it would be very hard to change the culture of a club that doesn't already have caddies.  

J_ Crisham

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2009, 09:12:36 PM »
Tommy Paul,    Thank you for addressing a subject near and dear to my heart,caddying. I believe that this is the ideal way to be exposed to the sport of golf if you grow up in a nongolfing family as I did. I started at the age of 12 and caddied at Beverly for about 10 yrs during which time I was awarded the Evans. We have about 300 caddies,most HS and college kids, not really any projocks. The typical caddy earns from $40-80  per loop. You must take a caddy and double bagging rarely occurs. We also have over 300 Evans Scholar alums from Beverly-the largest # in the program. A couple of other GCAers that shall remain nameless have been very suppportive both financially and time wise to keep our caddy program as good as any in the Chicago area. As Clint mentioned , OFCC also has a great program . The WGA is very supportive with getting a caddy program off the ground. Generally the local high schools are a great source. Ballyneal has done this recently, with I believe 2 or 3 scholars-Rupert O is a WGA director now. I realize that a caddy is an extra expense but it is so much more enjoyable than riding a cart.
Tommy,    As an aside, the elderly gentleman that caddied for me at Gulph Mills last August was just a wealth of course information in addition to being a great guy to BS with. I hope to repay the favor at Beverly whenever you chose to visit the Windy City!   Wish you well, Jack

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 09:24:09 PM »
When the tariff becomes a $100.00 per bag and the caddie is carrying double, I think that this stresses quite a few players.

I played with a man just yesterday that posted scores for 370 rounds in 2007, fortunately most were not played at the course where the fee is as above.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 09:30:01 PM »
At a time in my life when I truly could have gone either way, a buddy and I used to hitchhike 10-15 miles out to a few of the country clubs to caddie.

Some times we got loops, some times I'd just sit around staring at the golf course in awe.   

We never made a whole lot of money...just something to spend on a Friday, or Saturday night, and I can't even say I learned some wonderful life lessons from the largely nouveau riche that we primarily hoofed for.

However, we were on a golf course, and a beautiful and well-conditioned, and generally interesting one(s), and to me, there was no place on earth any better.


J_ Crisham

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 09:31:55 PM »
Bob,  I agree that at $100 a pop it would be very costly-keep in mind Chicago has such a short season,7 months. It allows us to replenish the kitty! ;)  I have to say that I am envious of a man who logs 370 rounds per annum- I assume he is retired or divorced?  Wish you well,    Jack

archie_struthers

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 09:54:40 PM »
 8) ;D >:( >:( ???

hey guys, you asked how to fix it , to save the institution, get the answer then say no way.

Assume 5$  a guy plus tip   , at my place the caddy would get 20-25 bucks plus tip   lots of times we play five guys  on busy weekends , and finish in about 3 45   all summer long ...so by 12 noon the forecaddy has made at least 40 bucks , as the guys who play good will slide him some extra,  would have gotten something to eat or drink at the half -way house  maybe learned a little about the game and made some older friends who just might be able to help him lin life


If he's good and polite , he's (or she) is going to get a bunch of clubs or balls to use (s guys buy new ones or discard old) and  becomes eligible for a college scholarship ...some of the best friends I have at 50 I met between 12-22 yrs old  ....it got me on Pine Valley....Shinnecock ....Merion ...Seminole .... Royal County Down  Winged Foot    need I go on... most for gratis .... I always had cash in my pocket ...learned to play gin...pinochle  etc etc


whats wrong with a  12-16 year old kid making 70-100 bucks cash on a weekend and getting some fresh air and exercise, I can guarantee you that 95 % of the kids I know don't make anything on a weekend ...they don't have jobs.....plus almost all caddies I know eventually get to play some golf and get free lessons from  the pro"s if they hang around enough
If you want to make big money looping you will of course have to  eventually go to one of the ritzier clubs , but you have some bottom ...you know how to caddy...because you learned from the better players at the club

the key is that almost no one begrudges five or ten bucks for a forecaddy, particularly a good one, and the big tippers will always get some extra cash into a hard workers pocket sooner or later....forecaddying is the ticket you can book it guys, it will work and not cost the club any dough !





« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:39:30 PM by archie_struthers »

John Mayhugh

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2009, 09:58:29 PM »
The club I own--walk anytime for free, 18 hole pull cart is $7, 9 hole pull cart is $4, (no caddies :()  $50 guest fee except for juniors for whom it is $5

$5 fee for juniors - that's a great thing to do.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 10:12:22 PM »
Archie,

You rock.

Mike

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2009, 10:24:01 PM »
I caddied in St. Louis from the age of 12 all the way through college.  I began in 1977 and a first-year single caddie was paid about $4.25 for 18 holes.  Those caddies beyond their first-year were paid about $5.00 per bag.  By either one’s first or second year of high school, it was almost all doubles (so about $10.00 per loop).  And the club I caddied at had a no tipping rule (which a vast majority of the membership followed).

We had over 100 caddies and it was the best thing that happened in my life.

First of all, the only other way a boy could earn money before the age of 12 was yard work and shoveling snow in the winter.  With caddying we could still cut a few lawns in the neighborhood.  Some caddies began to quit when they were old enough to get other jobs, but quite a few kept at it all through high school and occasionally into college.  For one thing it was easier to keep with on school work and school athletics, since you only had to caddie when you choose to.  Also, it was more fun then a lot of other high school jobs.  In addition, there was the free golf at a private course once per week (plus occasional free shoes from members, and the pro allowed the caddies to buy equipment at cost.)

Everyday during summer break I had something to do.  I would go to the caddie yard.  Most caddies could get at least 1 loop in during each weekday (except during the worst heat waves), and quite a few could get in 2 loops on Sat or Sun.

While waiting for a loops you hung out with your buddies, learned to play cards for dimes and quarters, talked sports, and got to hear stories from the handful of college aged caddies.

Then on the course you learned how to behave around professionals, and also learned how the higher-ups in the world (the executives, owners, etc.) behaved out of the limelight and during their leisure time (which is actually similar to everyone else).  These were great lessons when it was time to enter the work force after college.  In addition, caddying for the better golfers was a good way to learn how to play.  Finally, caddying for those who love the game result in learning how to respect the course and the game.

The benefits of the caddie scholarships are obvious.  But even those who do not get caddie scholarships can make great connections that come in handy later in life.

I got a lot of interviews after college through the people I caddied for.  Then, when I did begin my first office job, I was at ease with my supervisors, since I was use to dealing with professionals through my time caddying.

I think if clubs concentrate recruiting caddies around age 12-13, they can develop a very strong caddie program, but which will not be too expensive for the membership.  A very active caddie program, with strong training by an excellent caddie master, can result in a caddie that is more than just a bag toter after just 2 years of caddying experience.

The caddie yard gave me friends for life; introduced me to golf (properly); kept me busy during summer breaks during my teenage years, gave me an opportunity to earn some spending money, without interfering with school; gave me valuable work experience & lessons (to earn good money caddying, I had to learn to get myself out of bed early every morning, and learn how to give excellent service so that the caddie master heard good things about me from the membership); gave me networking opportunities when I was looking to get my first real job out of college; and finally gave me the knowledge I needed to behave properly once I got that first job (respect, hard work, hustle, and proper workplace behavior).

If this is not enough to convince one of the benefits of having a vibrant caddie program, than I do not know what will.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2009, 10:34:35 PM »
In addition, per the fees:

Pay likely needs to be at least minimum wage.  For a 4-hour round this is about $32.00

If a club recruits local 12-13 year olds, has a single only, no tipping rule for first & second year caddies, then allows them to receive tips after 2 years, and to double (but for only $25 per bag, then plus tip) I think the economics may then work for some clubs.

Also, if the members tip vetern single caddies better than vetern doubles, some veterns may prefer to single (for instance if they may make $50 for a single vs. $60 for a double).
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jed Peters

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2009, 10:44:35 PM »
Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.

I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.

If you couldn't fathom $50, I suppose $70 is out of the question...the going rate at my out-of-town club, where caddies are mandatory.

At over 100 rounds a year on my home course, I just couldn't swing a looper every time.

Now, for an out of town club, I can understand.

And I only play, say, 10 rounds a year at clubs that dictate mandatory caddies.

Now, I'll also put it this way--I also grew up caddying, and if I had the means, would be one of the first to step up and support a program.

C. Squier

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2009, 10:47:38 PM »
In addition, per the fees:

Pay likely needs to be at least minimum wage.  For a 4-hour round this is about $32.00

If a club recruits local 12-13 year olds, has a single only, no tipping rule for first & second year caddies, then allows them to receive tips after 2 years, and to double (but for only $25 per bag, then plus tip) I think the economics may then work for some clubs.

Also, if the members tip vetern single caddies better than vetern doubles, some veterns may prefer to single (for instance if they may make $50 for a single vs. $60 for a double).

I can see the economics working for the club/members, but not for the caddies.  It's not like they start "working" the second you tee off and get done the moment you walk off 18.  Not to mention the time waiting around for a loop.  The pay needs to make up for the intangibles, or you'll lose the kids to other summer jobs.  I do like your idea of introducing tips after a certain period of time though, but I think the base pay needs to be high enough to show that caddying is a worthwhile pursuit over their high school and even college years.  Paying them minimum wage just puts the club at risk of losing them to the first job that offers them another few bucks an hour.  I'd rather pay a little extra knowing that caddy turnover is low and even the youngest will have some experience.  

Even a decent forecaddy will save a golfer 2-3 balls per round just by finding them.  I think it's fair to factor that into their pay as well.  

Tom_Doak

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Re: Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2009, 10:51:20 PM »
Tom P:

Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart.  I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ... it really saves our brains by not having to figure out where to put the ugly paths, and it encourages walking and/or caddie programs.

The caddie programs in Chicago and Philadelphia and Boston and New York are tremendous, but I believe the main reason they've survived is because of the support they receive from graduates of the program who tend to be on the boards of clubs in those cities.  It would be much harder to start a program from scratch; I've been involved with several courses that have tried (including Crystal Downs) and it is always tough sledding, anywhere carts are an option.

I think Archie's approach is a great one.  At the end of the day, it's the 12-15 year old kids you are trying to attract.

P.S.  I could not recommend more to any aspiring architect the experience of caddying for a summer.  I only did it so I could see The Old Course at St. Andrews on an everyday basis, but along the way I learned what a huge variety of players there are who love the game in spite of their ability level ... and that THEY are the retail golfers Mike Keiser thinks about.