Rumors and Speculation Regarding Course Struggles

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps we are seeing the tip of the iceburg of golf course struggles and closures.  That said, should we speculate on the financial status or economic viability of particular golf courses on this site? 

In my opinion it is harmful to do so.  Your thoughts?

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

I agree. Until it is more than rumor (i.e. press release) then it should not be made a public announcement here. It only does harm.

Joe

[Mike Bowline]

A very good point and I agree. The media sure helped the US economy along inot it s current slump by trumpeting bad economic news every chance they got in screaming headlines. Let's not do our [unwilling] part by speculating without firm, publicized facts.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I was going to post the same thing in another thread.  We can never forget how many people read this site, but perhaps not follow every thread to its conclusion. Its very possible that a thousand people read the first post and will now believe Black Rock is going under, without having seen the followup posts.  Its sort of like "Bad News on page 1, retraction next day on page 21.  Real damage can be done here to the reputation of courses, clubs, resorts, and yes, even golf course architects......

[Peter Wagner]

Hmm, good point, I'll retract my other thread. Sorry.
- Peter

[Joe Hancock]

Hmm, good point, I'll retract my other thread. Sorry.
- Peter

Peter,

I did my best to side track it.....

Good idea, however.

Joe

[Peter Wagner]

Hmm, good point, I'll retract my other thread. Sorry.
- Peter

Peter,

I did my best to side track it.....

Good idea, however.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I owe you one.  It was one of those type-before-thinking moments. 
-Peter

[Jerry Kluger]

I attended a board meeting at my club yesterday and there is a possible bright side to the situation which clubs should consider.  Families are looking for value in recreation and vacations, and country clubs can be attractive and economical when including both of these factors.  Think about how much a family vacation can cost today if it includes airfare, hotel, meals, recreation(golf), etc., versus how much the annual cost is for many country clubs.  We have been finding that some families are making the decision to join a country club and spend the vacation time at the club in order to better use their discretionary funds.

 I would guess that a large percentage of clubs are struggling so pointing out that one particular club happens to be in financial trouble is really not news.

[Mike Bowline]

 I would guess that a large percentage of clubs are struggling so pointing out that one particular club happens to be in financial trouble is really not news.

There is a big difference between the conditions: "struggling" and "financial trouble", especially when speculation by outsiders (us) is involved.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: I was trying to point out that in the current financial climate the fact that a business is having financial trouble is really not news, and to speculate about the financial condition of a business is really inexcusable.

[PThomas]

speculate , no!

FACTS are ok

[PCCraig]

I think it is what it is...in that rumors will find its way onto this board somehow.

However, I think starting a thread with the title "Course X is going under!...I think" may be a bit too much.

[Mike_Young]

I attended a board meeting at my club yesterday and there is a possible bright side to the situation which clubs should consider.  Families are looking for value in recreation and vacations, and country clubs can be attractive and economical when including both of these factors.  Think about how much a family vacation can cost today if it includes airfare, hotel, meals, recreation(golf), etc., versus how much the annual cost is for many country clubs.  We have been finding that some families are making the decision to join a country club and spend the vacation time at the club in order to better use their discretionary funds.

 I would guess that a large percentage of clubs are struggling so pointing out that one particular club happens to be in financial trouble is really not news.

Jerry,
With all respect...it sounds as though your board or club manager has been reading the trade magazine or listening to a club consultant......they even are calling it a "staycation" in some publications.  I sounds good but just don't seeing it really having much affect.....
I think the most important thing a club can do is get back to golf and quit chasing it's tail trying to compete with the local food service industry......so many clubs today continue to try and increase food and beverage because they have this large clubhouse and the manager comes from F&B side.....IMO that is where so many of us are struggling and will continue.....

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: I think that you have to remember that operating a country club is different than operating a private golf course.  We who love golf and golf course architecture, etc., have to remember that many people who join a country club do so with a view toward enjoying all of the facilities so the pool, tennis, and clubhouse could be very important to them.  There is no need for elaborate food service but if you and your family are going to be spending a good deal of time there then you want a nice facility and good food. It is obvious that if someone does not like the golf course or it is poorly maintained then they are not going to join anyway.

We can disagree about the vacation versus country club, but we have had some members tell us that they would rather give up some vacation than give up their membership. 

[Mike_Young]

Mike: I think that you have to remember that operating a country club is different than operating a private golf course.  We who love golf and golf course architecture, etc., have to remember that many people who join a country club do so with a view toward enjoying all of the facilities so the pool, tennis, and clubhouse could be very important to them.  There is no need for elaborate food service but if you and your family are going to be spending a good deal of time there then you want a nice facility and good food. It is obvious that if someone does not like the golf course or it is poorly maintained then they are not going to join anyway.

We can disagree about the vacation versus country club, but we have had some members tell us that they would rather give up some vacation than give up their membership. 

Jerry,
As you say it brings the possibility of a brightside.....and of course there are those that would choose to give up a vacation vs a membership....
As for country clubs vs golf clubs.....there just aren't many golf clubs....and so many of these "country clubs" have created a monster with their F&B operations and they are a thing of the past.....a golf course can try and compete with several other courses in a town but when a town has a few hundred restaurants, good health clubs and neighborhood tennis and swimming.....well not many people will pay 400 to 500 each month to eat at a place that may not be as good as most restaurants in town....but clubs feel they are stuck with the structure....something is going to give IMHO....take care

[Craig Sweet]

Mike Young is the "H" on your keyboard sticking?

[Sean_A]

The odd thing about all this speculation is that I have never heard of these clubs meant to be in trouble.  How news worthy can it be?

Ciao

[Jeff Goldman]

I attended a board meeting at my club yesterday and there is a possible bright side to the situation which clubs should consider.  Families are looking for value in recreation and vacations, and country clubs can be attractive and economical when including both of these factors.  Think about how much a family vacation can cost today if it includes airfare, hotel, meals, recreation(golf), etc., versus how much the annual cost is for many country clubs.  We have been finding that some families are making the decision to join a country club and spend the vacation time at the club in order to better use their discretionary funds.

 I would guess that a large percentage of clubs are struggling so pointing out that one particular club happens to be in financial trouble is really not news.

Jerry,

For some clubs, that's a good point.  We are expecting at least the same level of member use this year for that very reason (it's already a sunk cost), though a decrease in revenue because of the economy.  Last year we experienced an increase in family usage as the economy went south and continued to do so. By wedding the club to the family, you have a better chance of retaining these members since it isn't just hubby's golf club twice a week.

Obviously, that idea only works for cetain clubs in certain situations, and shouldn't be taken as any sort of general strategy.  Each situation is different.

Jeff

[mike_malone]

 I checked in on this topic to find out the latest rumor

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young is the "H" on your keyboard sticking?

rereading it looks like I had several keys sticking