[Ian Andrew]

Today’s column by Lorne Rubenstein, written in the Globe and Mail, is an interview with Tom Fazio. Tom spends some time talking about ranking and how the traditional nature of the game means that the older courses will always get ranked ahead of new work.

I DON”T WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090117.RUBE17/TPStory/?query=lorne+rubenstein

He later on makes an interesting argument that I thought would make a very good thread. He says,

"I'm always telling clients that it's very hard to break into the Golf Digest list," Fazio said. "I hammer the people who run the magazines about the rankings, because it's such a controversial subject. I would have a top 100 for every decade. What's wrong with that? I happen to think the nineties were the best decade. Others say the twenties.”

I think he presents us a great idea. I got me thinking what are the best 10 courses built in the 1980’s and the1990’s?

I would like you to provide the Best 5 you have seen in person. For the benefit of others I ask that you please write the date of opening and the architect or architects involved.

To deepen the discussion, I encourage you to list ONE course that did not make your five, but you felt had a clear influence on golf course architecture.

I plan to pick up the dialogue with a follow up question or two to try and take this discussion further after there is enough feedback to work with.

[Ian Andrew]

The Rankings offer up the following list:

Top 5 in 1980’s

1. TPC Sawgrass (Stadium) 1981
2. Wade Hampton – Tom Fazio - 1987
3. The Honours Course – Pete Dye – 1983
4. Black Diamond (Quarry) – Tom Fazio - 1988
5. Blackwolf Run (River) – Pete Dye – 1988

Influential Design Not on the List: couldn't come up with one

Top 5 in 1990’s

1. Sand Hills - Coore and Crenshaw - 1994
2. Whistling Straights _ Pete Dye - 1998
3. Kiawah Island (Ocean) – Pete Dye - 1991
4. Bandon Dunes – David Kidd - 1999
5. Kingsbarns –Kyle Phillips – 1999

Influential Design Not on the List: Tobacco Road – Mike Strantz - 1998

[Ian Andrew]

Others of note to help get you started:

6. Long Cove – Pete Dye – 1981
7. Castle Pines – Jack Nicklaus - 1981
8. Forest Highlands (Canyon) - Weiscopf and Morrish - 1988

6. Loch Lomond – Weiscopf and Morrish - 1994
7. Shadow Creek – Tom Fazio - 1990
8. Pete Dye – Pete Dye – 1994

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Fascinating topic but keep in mind many will not be able to post because their personal database of courses played for the time frame you mentioned is low.

I do think you will see -- from at least me -- the listing of courses that are not designed by the so-called "A" list folks but from others that really inspired me in terms of what is indeed possible given the right circumstances such as property, client, etc, etc.

I will be giving this some serious thought and reply shortly.

p.s. I will also include the current decade even though we are not finished with it just yet.

[Ian Andrew]

Matt,

Please don't post the current decade - there is a point to this exercise.

[BCrosby]

Is the point that ranking courses by decade creates false equivalencies between the best courses of each decade?

Because I think that is exactly what Fazio is trying to sneak past Rubenstein.

Bob 

[ed_getka]

Ian,
   Very interesting thread. I will have to do a little research to get my dates right and provide an answer to your question.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

I'm away from any of my books for a few days, so it's hard to remember which courses fall into which decade exactly.  I'll try to do it when I get back.

However, having been involved in the rankings business, here's what I can tell you:

In the 1980's, everyone thought Pete Dye was doing groundbreaking work and that all the stuff from the 60's and 70's (except Pete's) was crap.

In the 90's, the big budget courses from the 80's (PGA West for example) fell by the wayside and everybody thought Tom Fazio was the only one doing good work.

Now a few younger guys are doing best in the rankings and all the 80's and 90's stuff is dissed.

Ten years from now I'm sure it will change again, except that a few courses  from each decade on really special sites will endure.

[Ian Andrew]

Some Suggestions:

1984

Desert Highlands, Scottsdale, Arizona, Jack Nicklaus.


1986

Troon G. & C.C., Scottsdale, Jay Morrish & Tom Weiskopf.
PGA West G.C. (TPC Stadium Cse.), La Quinta, Calif., Pete Dye.

1988

The Links at Spanish Bay, Pebble Beach, Calif., Robert Trent Jones Jr., Sandy Tatum & Tom Watson.

1989

High Pointe, Williamsburg, Michigan, Tom Doak
Kauai Lagoons G. & C.C. (Kiele Cse.), Lihue, Kauai, Hawaii, Jack Nicklaus.
Sedona Golf Resort, Village of Oak Creek, Gary Panks.
Ventana Canyon Golf & Racquet C. (Canyon Cse.), Tucson, Tom Fazio.
Hammock Dunes G. Links, Palm Coast, Fla., Tom Fazio.
Sherwood Oaks, Sherwood, California, Jack Nicklaus

1990

The Prince Cse., Princeville, Kauai, Hawaii, Robert Trent Jones Jr.
Shadow Creek, North Las Vegas, Nev., Tom Fazio & Steve Wynn.
2. Sycamore Hills G.C., Fort Wayne, Ind., Jack Nicklaus.

1991

Kapalua G.C. (Plantation Cse.), Kapalua, Maui, Hawaii, Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.
3. Coeur d'Alene Resort G.C., Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, Scott Miller.
4. Troon North G.C., Scottsdale, Ariz., Jay Morrish & Tom Weiskopf. (Now Troon North's Monument Cse.)

1992

Atlantic G.C., Bridgehampton, N.Y., Rees Jones.
2. Pumpkin Ridge G.C. (Witch Hollow Cse.), Cornelius, Ore. Bob Cupp.
3. Caves Valley G.C., Owings Mills, Md., Tom Fazio.
4. Double Eagle G.C., Galena, Ohio, Jay Morrish & Tom Weiskopf.
Pelican Hill G.C. (Ocean Cse.), Newport Coast, Cal., Tom Fazio. (Now Pelican Hill's Ocean South Cse.)

1993

The European Club, Pat Ruddy
Colleton River Plantation G.C., Bluffton, S.C., Jack Nicklaus. (Now Colleton River's Nicklaus Cse.)

1994

Caledonia Golf & Fishing C., Pawleys Island, S.C., Mike Strantz.
World Woods G.C. (Pine Barrens Cse.), Brooksville, Fla., Tom Fazio.
2. Brickyard Crossing G.C., Indianapolis, Pete Dye.

1996

Stonehouse G.C., Toano, Va., Mike Strantz.
(Now called Legends of Stonehouse G.C.)
2. Troon North G.C. (Pinnacle Cse.), Scottsdale, Tom Weiskopf.
The Estancia C., Scottsdale, Tom Fazio.
2. Ocean Forest G.C., Sea Island, Ga., Rees Jones.

1997

Royal New Kent G.C., Providence Forge, Va., Mike Strantz.
Sanctuary G.C., Sedalia, Colo., Jim Engh.
Hudson National G.C., Croton-on-Hudson, N.Y., Tom Fazio.

1998

Old Works G.Cse., Anaconda, Mont., Jack Nicklaus

1999

Wild Horse G.C. Gothenburg, Neb., Dan Proctor & Dave Axland.
Bay Harbor G.C. (Links & Quarry 9s), Bay Harbor, Mich., Arthur Hills.
The G.C. of Cuscowilla, Eatonton, Ga., Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.
Tobacco Road G.C, Sanford, N.C., Mike Strantz.
Victoria National G.C., Newburgh, Ind., Tom Fazio.
2. Sand Ridge G.C., Chardon, Ohio, Tom Fazio.
3. Lost Dunes G.C., Bridgman, Mich., Tom Doak.
4. Cape Cod National G.C., Brewster, Mass., Brian Silva.

[Ian Andrew]

Top 3 in 1980’s

1. TPC Sawgrass (Stadium) 1981
2. High Pointe, Williamsburg, Michigan, Tom Doak
3. Black Diamond (Quarry) – Tom Fazio - 1988

They were the only three I come up with that I liked.

Top 5 in 1990’s

1. Bandon Dunes – David Kidd - 1999
2. Tobacco Road G.C, Sanford, N.C., Mike Strantz.
3. Kingsbarns –Kyle Phillips – 1999
4. World Woods G.C. (Pine Barrens Cse.), Brooksville, Fla., Tom Fazio.
5. The European Club, Pat Ruddy

I have no idea if they are in the right order and there are far too many courses like Sand Hills that I have not seen.

[mark chalfant]

Ian:

1980s

Firethorn,   Pete and Alice Dye  1985   
Blackwolf Run ( River ) Pete Dye     1988
Dunes at Seville  Florida  Arthur  Hills  1988
Black Diamond Quarry  Tom  Fazio

1990s 

Cuscowilla,  Coore and Crenshaw 1999
Orchards, Michigan   (RTJ  II ) 1994
Sand Hills, Nebraska 1997
Waverly Oaks,  Plymouth, MA.  Brian Silva,  1998
Glen Mills,  PA.  Bobby Weed  1999



 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

The only problem with the best by decade list is it would expand the arguments over lists by approximately 10X over the GD list debate, and 5X over the Golf Week list debate, since its already split by modern and classic. 

BTW, we also have the best new by year in several pubs, so maybe a decade by decade review of the past winners (which I think Ron W did recently) would be all that is needed.

It's funny, but Fazio got busy and famous building courses that are playable for their intended membership and fabulous looking.  IMHO, he did it specifically to offer an alternative to Dye and Nicklaus who were building acclaimed - but in too tough - signature courses.  If he wanted a top 10 or 100 so badly, he could have designed some more really tough courses, which are what tend to make the list.  I am more than certain that he could have done it, had he really wanted.

However, if I was him, I wouldn't be all that concerned over my legacy.  He did it his way and did it quite well for what he said he wanted to accomplish.

[henrye]

Ian, my faves by decade are as follows.  From a design standpoint, not sure if any were great influencers (other than TPC Stadium and arguably Lake Joe).

1980's
TPC Sawgrass Stadium - 81 Dye
Beacon Hall - 88 McBroom

1990's
Kapalua Plantation - 91 Coore & Crenshaw
Cabo Ocean - 94 Nicklaus
Redtail - 92 Steel
Lake Joe - 97 McBroom
Osprey Heathlands - 90 Carrick

I also found that I had a number of other close ones from the 90's, but none from the 80's.

Interesting that in Score's top 100, 34 courses are from the 80's & 90's.  I wonder if that would equate to 34% of the top 1000 in the US also from the same decades.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian,

The only problem with the best by decade list is it would expand the arguments over lists by approximately 10X over the GD list debate, and 5X over the Golf Week list debate, since its already split by modern and classic. 

BTW, we also have the best new by year in several pubs, so maybe a decade by decade review of the past winners (which I think Ron W did recently) would be all that is needed.

It's funny, but Fazio got busy and famous building courses that are playable for their intended membership and fabulous looking.  IMHO, he did it specifically to offer an alternative to Dye and Nicklaus who were building acclaimed - but in too tough - signature courses.  If he wanted a top 10 or 100 so badly, he could have designed some more really tough courses, which are what tend to make the list.  I am more than certain that he could have done it, had he really wanted.

However, if I was him, I wouldn't be all that concerned over my legacy.  He did it his way and did it quite well for what he said he wanted to accomplish.

Jeff,

I don't think the debate is quite as contentious as you may think - as the response sort of proves – because most of the people who frequent like so little architecture from these periods. The 80’s is so bad that it’s hard to even list 5 courses.

But if we did this for the teens, 20’s, or the 30’s the response would have been overwhelming. Even the 70’s or this decade would have lead to a host of courses you could point to for quality or influence.

[Matt Bosela]

Tough question Ian. 

I keep pretty good records about where I've played and out of the 87 courses I've played, only four of them were designed in the 80's: Deer Creek North in Ajax, Ontario; Hawk Ridge (Timber Ridge Course) in Orillia, Ontario; Peninsula Lakes GC in Fonthill, Ontario and Monarch Beach Golf Links in Dana Point, California.

Of the four, the Rene Muylaert designed Peninsula Lakes (1980) is the only one I even enjoyed playing but there is nothing architecturally significant about the place unless you want to see how to best fit a golf course into a tight quarry.

Monarch Beach GL (1984) is a mediocre Robert Trent Jones Jr. design with one of the worst ocean front holes I've ever seen in person.

At least I can put together a decent list of courses for the 1990's that I've seen in person:

1. Warren Golf Club at the University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame, Indiana, USA
Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw (1999)

2. Princeville (The Prince Course)
Princeville, Hawaii, USA
Robert Trent Jones Jr (1990)

3. Osprey Valley (Heathlands Course)
Alton, Ontario, Canada
Doug Carrick (1992)

4. PGA Golf Club (Dye Course)
Port St. Lucie, Florida, USA
Pete Dye (1998)

5. Deerhurst (Highlands Course)
Huntsville, Ontario, Canada
Thomas McBroom (1990)

The Warren Course is situated on an unremarkable piece of land but Coore and Crenshaw continue to hone their minimalist style to great effect.  Lots of subtleties here and a very pleasant place to play.  The Prince is the exact opposite - big, bold, remarkable land and topography but there is a lot of hit and miss here.  One of the most difficult and intimidating openers I've played but architecturally speaking, the back nine is much stronger than the front.  Osprey Valley Heathlands, a course Ian contributed on, is a fantastic links-style course on an otherwise plain piece of land in the middle of the country.  The Dye Course at PGA Golf Club utilizes waste areas to a great degree and Dye offers plenty of options to navigate your way around.  Deerhurst Highlands doesn't hold up quite as well as it used to and I'm not entirely sold on the hybrid style McBroom used, with a few 'links' style holes meshed in with the remaining parkland style holes.  However, this course was one of, if not the first, to utilize the Canadian Shield to any effect in its design and I still feel it's a bit stronger than McBroom's Deer Ridge, a 1990 design that falls just short of my top five.

HONOURABLE MENTION:
Poipu Bay GC
Koloa, Hawaii, USA
Robert Trent Jones Jr. (1991)

Nothing great here but Jones built a couple great oceanside holes (the 16th is quite spectacular) to make up for his earlier effort at Monarch Beach.

This list just proves that I need to get out more!

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