Why Isn't There More Discussion on Waialae?

[Sam Morrow]

I admit that the Sony Open isn't a tournament that gets my juices flowing but walking past the TV I heard The Golf Channel mention that it's a Raynor design. I can't believe that there isn't more talk about this course for that reason. I searched and found a few threads but was surprised there wasn't more. I also find it interesting that the 2 Hawaii stops are both courses that would probably merit lots of GCA talk with last week being a Crenshaw/Coore.

Does the Treehouse know something I don't know?

[Jed Peters]

I really think most of the raynor is out of it after baldock touched it in the 60s.....

[David Stamm]

I really think most of the raynor is out of it after baldock touched it in the 60s.....

Exactly. There isn't much, if any, Raynor left. Uncle George I'm sure can tell us how much the course has changed.

[Sam Morrow]

I really think most of the raynor is out of it after baldock touched it in the 60s.....

Exactly. There isn't much, if any, Raynor left. Uncle George I'm sure can tell us how much the course has changed.

Thanks David, looking at the site it didn't look like much Raynor was left. I didn't realize the course even that old anyway.

[Jonathan Cummings]

You don't go to Hawaii to play golf.  Waialae is just one of 90 other Hawaiian courses that take a background stance to the weather, views and island atmosphere.  Honestly, how many times have you heard a group of guys put together a golf trip to Hawaii?

I've played Waialae and was thoroughly underwhelmed - the front nine has a peak or two of character but the course is just plain boring.  I'm a Seth Raynor Society member and (obviously) love Raynor courses.  Waialae and Mid-Pac are two Raynors that are so watered down that there really isn't anything to study.

It's been ten years since I've been to Waialae but as fate will have it I'm going out to the Sony today.  I doubt I'll chance my view...

JC

[Damon Groves]

I have played Waialae and whatever Raynor was in it is now gone. Pretty boring course with little strategy left. You would think a big dissappointment to the Tour players who just played Kapalua and then get stuck on the Waialae freeway.

[Bill_McBride]

Is #17 supposed to be a Redan?  Originally?

[George_Bahto]

here's the original plan - from their club history

some of the hole styles from the original routing: (they may have reversed the 9's - too bored with this course to go thru it all)

2 - Eden  160
4 - plateau type green - crossbunker at 330  this was probably a Raynor    Prize Dog-Leg hole @ 460
6 - bottle hole (orig) 400

ck this one:
hole 7: "360 yard drive and pitch - runs along the ocean, patterned after famous green at Garden City”

8 - Redan
10 - 503 yd version of Road hole with optional tee
13 - 210 yd Biarritz (? see what it looks like now)
16 - 140 yds, patterned after well known 6th green at National course

* holes were renamed in 1965 for Sony Open

if I remember correctly these descriptions were written by Raynor (I have a full 18 hole set of descriptions, but those are the highlights

actually the story about the building of the hotel is more interesting than the course story

[Jim Johnson]

Funny story ... I was fortunate to be on a Hawaiian vacation with my parents and brother and sister in the early '80s. While staying in Waikiki, my dad, brother and I took in the Thursday round of the Hawaiian Open. We all split up for awhile, but I tagged along with my brother for a few holes on the front nine.

Can't recall which hole it was, medium-length straightaway par-4 hole. Bill Rogers, the defending British Open champion, was paired with Hale Irwin. Rogers, at the time, was one hot golfer. There was a fair sized crowd following along with these 2 guys.

Anyway, Rogers had an approach shot of some 125 yards, middle of the fairway. He had a wedge (it appeared) in his hands. He took his swing, and completely shanked the ball, straight sideways, some 2 or 3 feet off the ground. To the right of that fairway, in the rough between that fairway and another parallel fairway, was a metal garbage can. The ball nailed the garbage can on the fly, with a resounding smash, and Rogers turned around and with a mighty overhand swing buried the clubhead of his wedge into the turf. He stormed over to his ball, and his caddie nonchalantly leaned over to get the club, only to heave and pull on the thing to get it out of the ground. Rogers knocked his next shot on the green, two putted for a bogey, and walked off the green.

My brother always reminds me, whenever I tell this story, that he noticed that Irwin gave him a glare as they both walked off the green as if to say ... "don't you ever think of doing something stupid like that again".

JJ

[David Neveux]

I'm wondering whether it was Raynor's intentions to plant the palm tree's to form the W behind the green on the Par three that backs up into the ocean (not sure which number)?  I did hear Kelly Tilghman say that they were planted purposely to create the letter W, which obviously stands for Waialae.....interesting feature Thoughts, Comments? 

Personally I'd like to see no trees and just the vast Ocean as the backdrop, call me crazy.

Nev

[PThomas]

Funny story ... I was fortunate to be on a Hawaiian vacation with my parents and brother and sister in the early '80s. While staying in Waikiki, my dad, brother and I took in the Thursday round of the Hawaiian Open. We all split up for awhile, but I tagged along with my brother for a few holes on the front nine.

Can't recall which hole it was, medium-length straightaway par-4 hole. Bill Rogers, the defending British Open champion, was paired with Hale Irwin. Rogers, at the time, was one hot golfer. There was a fair sized crowd following along with these 2 guys.

Anyway, Rogers had an approach shot of some 125 yards, middle of the fairway. He had a wedge (it appeared) in his hands. He took his swing, and completely shanked the ball, straight sideways, some 2 or 3 feet off the ground. To the right of that fairway, in the rough between that fairway and another parallel fairway, was a metal garbage can. The ball nailed the garbage can on the fly, with a resounding smash, and Rogers turned around and with a mighty overhand swing buried the clubhead of his wedge into the turf. He stormed over to his ball, and his caddie nonchalantly leaned over to get the club, only to heave and pull on the thing to get it out of the ground. Rogers knocked his next shot on the green, two putted for a bogey, and walked off the green.

My brother always reminds me, whenever I tell this story, that he noticed that Irwin gave him a glare as they both walked off the green as if to say ... "don't you ever think of doing something stupid like that again".

JJ

i believe Hale could be pretty damn grumpy, often complaining that he never got any breaks,yada yada.......

[Sam Morrow]

Funny story ... I was fortunate to be on a Hawaiian vacation with my parents and brother and sister in the early '80s. While staying in Waikiki, my dad, brother and I took in the Thursday round of the Hawaiian Open. We all split up for awhile, but I tagged along with my brother for a few holes on the front nine.

Can't recall which hole it was, medium-length straightaway par-4 hole. Bill Rogers, the defending British Open champion, was paired with Hale Irwin. Rogers, at the time, was one hot golfer. There was a fair sized crowd following along with these 2 guys.

Anyway, Rogers had an approach shot of some 125 yards, middle of the fairway. He had a wedge (it appeared) in his hands. He took his swing, and completely shanked the ball, straight sideways, some 2 or 3 feet off the ground. To the right of that fairway, in the rough between that fairway and another parallel fairway, was a metal garbage can. The ball nailed the garbage can on the fly, with a resounding smash, and Rogers turned around and with a mighty overhand swing buried the clubhead of his wedge into the turf. He stormed over to his ball, and his caddie nonchalantly leaned over to get the club, only to heave and pull on the thing to get it out of the ground. Rogers knocked his next shot on the green, two putted for a bogey, and walked off the green.

My brother always reminds me, whenever I tell this story, that he noticed that Irwin gave him a glare as they both walked off the green as if to say ... "don't you ever think of doing something stupid like that again".

JJ

i believe Hale could be pretty damn grumpy, often complaining that he never got any breaks,yada yada.......

Come on Paul, that's every golfer.

[Jeff Evagues]

You don't go to Hawaii to play golf.  Waialae is just one of 90 other Hawaiian courses that take a background stance to the weather, views and island atmosphere.  Honestly, how many times have you heard a group of guys put together a golf trip to Hawaii?

I've played Waialae and was thoroughly underwhelmed - the front nine has a peak or two of character but the course is just plain boring.  I'm a Seth Raynor Society member and (obviously) love Raynor courses.  Waialae and Mid-Pac are two Raynors that are so watered down that there really isn't anything to study.

It's been ten years since I've been to Waialae but as fate will have it I'm going out to the Sony today.  I doubt I'll chance my view...

JC
A friend and I fly from New York  to Hawaii every November specifically to play at least 2 rounds a day for a week.

[Bill_McBride]

here's the original plan - from their club history

some of the hole styles from the original routing: (they may have reversed the 9's - too bored with this course to go thru it all)

2 - Eden  160
4 - plateau type green - crossbunker at 330  this was probably a Raynor    Prize Dog-Leg hole @ 460
6 - bottle hole (orig) 400

ck this one:
hole 7: "360 yard drive and pitch - runs along the ocean, patterned after famous green at Garden City”

8 - Redan
10 - 503 yd version of Road hole with optional tee
13 - 210 yd Biarritz (? see what it looks like now)
16 - 140 yds, patterned after well known 6th green at National course

* holes were renamed in 1965 for Sony Open

if I remember correctly these descriptions were written by Raynor (I have a full 18 hole set of descriptions, but those are the highlights

actually the story about the building of the hotel is more interesting than the course story

The nines are reversed, so original #8 Redan is #17 today.  Not sure how, as they apparently flattened the entire hole sometime in the past!

Thanks, George.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Uncle George - thanks for the post!  Waialae is played day in day out by the members as per your map (ocean holes on frontside, inlande holes on the backside).  The PGA reverses the nines for the Hawaiian/Sony Open only.  They want the ending holes on the water for television reasons (so Kelly can wax more about Nick's surfing lessons). 

I saw a ghostly form of the holes you describe.  The Biarrtz has a slight lateral depression running through it.  The Road hole is Roadish in length.  The Redan is Redanish in length and shape but dead flat - it plays with zero roll.

The bunkering at Waialae is really tame.  George Fazio's bunkering at Turtle Bay (although not much of a course either) is more inspired.

JC

PS - Jeff - to fly that distance and spend that much money on mediocre courses - you guys are one of a kind.

[Rich Goodale]

I played there a few times in conjunction with some work in Honolulu in the late 70s/early 80's and found it to be an average course attached to an above average club (I was playing as the guest of members).  The land is VERY flat, however, so not much could really have been done in those days, even by an engineer such as Raynor.

By far the best part of those business trips was staying at (what was then) the Kahala Hilton, whose location is at the SW corner of Geroge's wonderful map.  The wee estuary shown on that location used to hold wild dolphins who would come in to get snacks and then go back out to sea.  At the time the finest hotel I had ever been in, and probably still so, today.  Those were the days....

[George_Bahto]

The hotel was a thing of beauty - called the Pink Palace - 1927, 400-room, 4 mil, Spanish Moorish design by Warren & Wetmore.



I understand they just went thru a multi-million dollar renovation.

This hotel was IT in its heyday - world class; Chaplin, Gable. Mary Pickford, Groucho Marx etc - you name it.  Some would stay for weeks on end bringing their auto and chauffeurs.

Aside: I had been trying to verify a Raynor course in Puerto Rico - Berwind - for a long time, No luck with the PR Golf Assn and all the other usual avenues. Someone sent me an article from a Hawaiian Magazine - I think it was my contact at Mid-Pacific (I think he even posts here occasionally) - the short article actually written by Raynor and at the bottom, the editor mentions other Raynor courses ......  among them the usual suspects; Piping Rock, Wt Sulphur, Mtn Lake, St Louis .... but then there was Riddles Bay - accredited later to Emmet but it was Raynor designed (here again we have the Emmet/ Mac & Raynor connection) but then there was “Condada (spelled wrong)-Vanderbilt Hotel (and the Berwind course). Whitten and Cornish had it listed but could never verify it.

[Rich Goodale]

George

I think that hotel of yours was (is?) the Royal Hawaiian, on Waikiki.  The Kahala was out near Diamond Head and somethinhg very different and more special, IMHO.  You can see pictures of Wailiae on their website.

http://www.kahalaresort.com/

Rich

[George_Bahto]

The course was built for the Royal Hawaiian Hotel developed by the Territorial Hotel Co. The course is down the road a lot from the hotel

The Waialae course was once known as the Kahala Links and was renamed Waialae CC in 1942 or so.

Navy took it over after Pearl Harbor and returned it to the Matson Co after the war - Matson then spent 2 mil on the hotel, reopened in '47.

[Bill_McBride]

I was out there during my Navy days in the mid '60s, stationed on a destroyer homeported in Pearl Harbor.  I never played the Waialae course but did spend a day out at the then Hawaiian Open in 1966.  The course was quite flat and I don't remember anything that could have been what I would now recognize as a "Redan." 

The big hotel is down on Waikiki, maybe 10 miles from the golf course.

[Jud_T]

Just played Waialae today.  Good news is that it played firm and fast and I got around on Good Friday in 3:30.  But it's a sad echo of what it must have been at one point.  The back nine is apparently more of the original routing. I believe George said the greens were all lowered at some point for easier maintenance.  You can really see the difference.  Just take the Biarritz 13th compared to say Tamarack, Fishers or Shoreacres of those I've played.  The swale is a shadow of these others.  I know they moved a bunch of holes around at some point when I believe they sold off some waterfront property (?).  But this place could still be really special in the right hands.  Unfortunately it seems they are more interested in selling Sony Open merch than in honoring the courses heritage.  Of course the scorecard still proudly states that it's a Raynor/Banks creation.   Fyi-the Royal Hawaiian Hotel HAS undergone a major renovation and I'd highly recommend it.  Make sure to stay in the Old section.....