[PThomas]

“…but WOULD most golfers throttle back their expectations, i guess meaning slower-paced greens (or does he mean soemthing else?)”


“"Greens are far and away the most expensive components of a golf course on a cost-per-square-foot basis, and there is opportunity for savings, but only if we can throttle back our expectations."




PaulT:

I haven’t read  Rich Spears article you referred to that contains what you quoted above about greens or the cost of maintaining greens, nevertheless I may have a pretty good idea what he may mean because I talked to him about greens a couple of years ago.

I grew up at Piping Rock but even though Rich has been there a long time now I was basically out of there when he arrived so all I know about him and his philosophy is the couple of times I‘ve visited him. Rich does have a great reputation in the world of superintendency and certainly on Long Island. He also happens to have been a very good player for a long time.

Last time I went over to his office we talked a lot about the degree of firm and fast produced on greens. He happened to mention that if he was doing a tournament, particularly one late in the summer during high stress weather that if he was asked to produce really firm and fast conditions on his greens he would basically tell those asking for it (no matter who they were) to pick one or the other but he wouldn’t do both to any real extreme. By ‘pick one’ he meant he would offer either firm OR fast on the greens but not both to an extreme degree so those asking could decide for themselves if they’d prefer firm greens OR fast greens but they weren’t going to get both (to some extreme degree).

So if you ask me what he meant by his remark about greens I’d guess that would be what he meant.

Tom - unfortunately Golfworld only carried that quote by Rich, it wasn't an article

i for one have a hard time believing that members at most private clubs would tolerate their greens being slowed down, if that is what Rich is referring too

someone posted that their club saved 150 k by reducing bunker -related work...now THAT is a significant sum of money

and having too many bunkers as someone said certainly must be costly

[Mike Hendren]

From my perspective, architecture trumps conditioning every time.  Then again, I learned the game on a goat ranch country club with monthly dues of $15.   Not sure the paying public would agree, however. 

Bogey

[RSLivingston_III]

Some of the replies are interesting. Reducing green sizes, grassing over bunkers, eliminating bunkers....
Shades of the 1930's!!!

[JESII]

Why worry about writing it down? Just do it.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

"Greens are far and away the most expensive components of a golf course on a cost-per-square-foot basis, and there is opportunity for savings, but only if we can throttle back our expectations."

For me it's a pretty simple quote and makes perfect sense. If expectations were lowered especially speed, the stress on the turf is less, hence higher hoc and less need for fertilizer, pesticides, water etc. I have to agree though that bunkers are one of the biggest expenses on a course. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Paul,

From my side of the equation(public), greens are the one component that can make or break our golf course. We're 'throttled back' in so many other areas that we need to keep ours in stand-out condition.

....and as long as we keep them up to snuff we get fewer complaints about the rest of the course.


 

[Lou_Duran]

Joe,

I am partial to artful bunkering.  I also like for them to contain sufficient sand so that the club doesn't make contact with the soil, gravel, or clay base.  Short of grassing them over, what steps can be taken to minimize bunker maintenance?  Does providing an ample supply of good rakes help?

The greens would be the last place where I would skimp, though if they're firm, smooth, and relatively fast (10' +/-), that's all I care about. 

Heck yeah we can throttle back our expectations as long as those greens are firm,fast and smooth and our bunkers are artful and have the right amount of sand. :
 

That kind've says it all.

Jeff (if I may call you Jeff),

The vanity of expecting sand in sand bunkers and greens that provide the opportunity for a well-stroked putt to find the hole!

I've only been playing golf for 40 years, so perhaps I don't have a sufficient basis to know what golfers realistically want.  The one thing I have heard over and over about all types of golf courses is the condition of the greens.  A distant second is bunker maintenance, with the lack of sand being the most common complaint.

If I was an investor in a golf course and/or an operator, I would make sure that my greens putt well and that my bunkers are well-maintained.  If I could not keep sand in my bunkers due to cost, I'd grass them over.  Another thing I would insist on is cleanliness.  A dirty, trashy course invites neglect and makes the wrong impression.

If my expectations are too extravagant, we must be getting into some serious s--t!

       

[PThomas]

Paul,

From my side of the equation(public), greens are the one component that can make or break our golf course. We're 'throttled back' in so many other areas that we need to keep ours in stand-out condition.

....and as long as we keep them up to snuff we get fewer complaints about the rest of the course.

Hogan said he didn't care about the rest of the course  as long as the greens were in good shape Jim!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Paul,
Hogan was a smart man 

....and with his skill set, he didn't need to care about the rest. Hit the fairway, hit the green, one or two putt, repeat. 

[Sam Maryland]

Let's start with throttling back the runaway costs and expectations of today's sand bunkers. Then, if needed, we can talk about throttling back the expectations of greens.

Joe

Joe - pls explain for those not in the know like me, thanks

I would say that we are looking at people insisting bunkers be uniform in texture, depth, etc. and demanding they all be raked daily or every other day. Doing away with stuff like that would allow for a good amount of cost cutting in maintenance budgets.

I would say the #1 complaint about our course has always been that the sand in the bunkers is "inconsistent," whether that means some is dry, some wet, some hard, some thin, some thick.......

with a proper set of wedges and a decent understanding of bounce, consistency is irrelevant, I think.

Bradley, could one guy make a 2 row hand pass around the edges of a square tee and then follow with another guy on the tripex?  just curious.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley, could one guy make a 2 row hand pass around the edges of a square tee and then follow with another guy on the tripex?  just curious.
[/quote]

Sam,

Yes that is an option. Thanks for catching me on that one. 

Shepherds Crook in Chicago mows square tees using that method. The tees have to be fairly large however to do that, and with ample room for turning the triplex around.

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