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David Neveux

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2009, 03:19:22 PM »
Doc,

Looks like you double crossed that tee shot as I'm pretty sure I can spot your DT SOLO laying in the right FW bunker.  I really got the MCC feel from the picture taken from the back of the first green.  Are the greens relatively small like MCC?  Thats a course that doesn't get much attention, but is a personal favorite of mine.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2009, 04:29:33 PM »
It is interesting how much love this course gets based on having about 9 good to excellent holes.
    We were quite excited when we drove up and you see the property movement on either side of the road. We played the first and I was salivating about how great of a day it was going to be. Then #2 is just dead flat with a little burn that really isn't in play off the tee unless you are really short, the green is pretty flat and has some pointless mounding around its periphery as I remember it. #3 comes back up parallel to #2 and again is flat with a slight rise up toward the green which is near #1 green. Then you turn right and play #4 which parallels #1, back towards the clubhouse. #4 is a very solid par 3 of which John has a picture posted. Really nice movement to the green and my hopes rose again. #5 is a pretty flat par 5 without anything to think about on the 2nd shot except for hitting it. The burn does cross at some point, but I don't remember it being where it gave me pause on my tee shot or second shot. I can't really remember which hole came next. I think it is one that goes out and turns almost 90 degrees right and then heads uphill pretty significantly. Then if I remember right the toughest hole of the front nine came which was a par 4 that had a slightly uphill drive up onto what felt like a spine of land and left a pretty long approach if memory serves. At least for my paltry drive. :) #8 is just a little par 3 with a decent green but is so short that it is pretty boring. #9 I liked quite a bit as it doglegged right around a drop in the land down to #1. There were too many bunkers, and they were too shallow IMO, but the hole had an optical quality that I found very interesting that made it hard to tell how far features were and made it difficult to judge how aggressive to be with your shots. I really liked the green on this hole, certainly one of the best on the course. So thinking back over the front nine I really liked #1, 4, 7, and 9. #6 was pretty interesting too with the rising land on the second shot.
    I really liked the hole on the back nine that BCrosby mentions (#16) as well as the one that headed uphill towards the clubhouse early on the back nine (#11 I would imagine). #15 was a pretty interesting hole too with a big dogleg right that dropped down into a wide meadow area.
    So yes there are some interesting things to see at Belvedere but I wouldn't rave too much about the place and raise expectations too high. It is a beautiful setting up above the lake that you see in the distance, it is maintained well, and as I mentioned I think it would be a great course to grow up on learning the game. However, there are a number of courses I have played or seen in Michigan that I thought more highly of. CD, Kingsley, High Pointe, Angels Crossing, The Mines, Lost Dunes (for the greens)  are all courses I would choose to play before Belvedere.
   I think you just need to go to Belvedere with appropriate expectations, because it is worth seeing, I just don't think it is a must see. IMO.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2009, 04:45:29 PM »
Ed G, et al - thanks for a good thread.  A number of you have said, in essence, that the Doak 5 score/rank that Belvedere gets is fair, and just about right. I'll assume that's true. But it got me to thinking:

If Belvedere is a Doak 5, I say "Hail to the Doak 5s! May they live long and prosper (as indeed they will)!"  The Doak 5s. Sturdy. Dependable. The great character actors of the golfing world: Allan Hale Sr., Cedric Hardwicke, Whit Bissell. Better than the 3s and 4s; less neurotic and anxious-to-please than the 6s and 7s (always hoping as they are to one day be 8s).  Low-maintenance. Democratic. Populists - like a good Frank Capra picture. Not wholly reviled or ignored like the 1s and 2s; not excessively praised and idolized like the 9s and 10s. The  highschool sweetheart. The blocking full-back. The bass player for The Who. The 5s. The happy 5s. The band of brothers. Quiet utilitarians: offering the greatest good for the greatest number. Safe and Secure - too successful and frequently played to be torn up, too modest to be fought over and restored. In the calculus of golfing pleasure for golfers everywhere, it may be that the Doak 5s reign supreme!

Peter

Scott Witter

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2009, 04:51:06 PM »
Damn Peter, your talent for words makes this site a pleasure on a cold-ass winter day here in the northeast.

Put me down for another fellow admirer of the Doak 5's ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2009, 05:06:05 PM »
Well thank you, Scott.  I'm just trying to keep my fingers warm...

And here's hoping Jim Thompson sees your thread. I miss his posts, and I'd be interested in getting is views on Belvedere

Peter


Doug Ralston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2009, 06:22:40 PM »
Michael, Belvedere is often mentioned on a short list of courses worthy of seeing in Michigan.

Hiya Adam;

Couldn't help picking out this part of your comment. It's just that, of all states, I cannot categorize a SHORT list of must plays in Michigan. It is simply an entire state full of riches. Of course, we all define 'worthy' differently, and I do not have your experiences. But I still venture I could list more than a short few you would be glad to have experienced. And Greywalls is on it! Be there.

Aside from that, wanted to say hello again to an old friend.

Doug
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2009, 06:34:38 PM »
I think it would be absurd to tell anyone to pass up a once in a lifetime opportunity to play Crystal Downs or Kingsley - or even to pass up a second round on either - to play Belvedere.  I don't think anyone here is saying that.  If you've got a free day in the area, I thought Belvedere / High Pointe made for a great day!

For me, the love of this course was above the green complexes.  I recall #1, #4, #6, #7, #11, #12, #13, #16, #17, and #18 being really cool, and there were some others mixed in that were pretty darn good.  If 9 really cool green complexes and a short par 4 that Tom Watson calls one of his 10 favorite short par 4s in the world (at least so says the guy at the counter) isn't worth a half-day, then you've got a pretty good itinerary so you won't miss a thing!   

Brian Cenci

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2009, 07:22:20 PM »
Doc,

Looks like you double crossed that tee shot as I'm pretty sure I can spot your DT SOLO laying in the right FW bunker.  I really got the MCC feel from the picture taken from the back of the first green.  Are the greens relatively small like MCC?  Thats a course that doesn't get much attention, but is a personal favorite of mine.

That is my ball in the bunker but that bunker is about 270 yards off the tee.  #9 there is a par 5.  Actually hit it out of that bunker to about 10 yards short of the green.

David Neveux

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2009, 09:14:56 PM »
3 JACK? :D

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2009, 09:36:52 PM »
John,
   Please post at least one picture of each hole if possible. You sort of cherry-picked most of the interesting spots on the course. :)

I didn't have time to upload and post any more pics than I did.  Here are a few more.  Be warned, though, that I tend not to take pics of the least interesting spots on courses that I visit.   ;D

Some of the holes are clearly inferior to the others, but I think the greens kept interest throughout.  Here's the second hole tee shot.  The little burn isn't really in play. The hole's about 400 yards and really flat. 


Boring hole, except take a look at this green, viewed from short and left.


Tee shot on the third.  A similar distance to 2 going back towards 2 tee.  The burn is a little more in play on this tee shot.  A well placed bunker on the right side encourages you to play more up the left side where the burn is a bit more of a carry.  If you hit the tee ball solid, though, you should be fine.


No pics of the third green.  Here's the tee shot on 4.  220 yard par 3.  You can see the clubhouse at the top of the hill.


Fifth hole is a 540 yard par 5 with the burn in play again.  Approach looks pretty boring.  I remember this as the blandest of the holes.



I mislabeled the 7th hole earlier as #6.  I'll fix that shortly.  Here's the sixth. 



Already posted photos of the 7th & 8th.  Here's the tee shot on the 9th.  It's a par 5 back up the hill that measures a little under 500. 


Bunkers on the right side of the fairway.


Another fun green from front and rear.



We'll cross the road to the second 9 shortly.





J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2009, 09:52:37 PM »
John,  very nic pics-wish I would have found time to join you guys for a game at Belvidere.   Jack

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2009, 10:56:53 PM »
I would recommend Belvedere quite highly.  My rating of it from The Confidential Guide was based on a visit in the early 1980's (the first time I went to Crystal Downs) ... it is much better looked after today, and might get a 6 if I were still doing that sort of thing.

Bruce Hepner has been consulting there for several years now.  I just go play it once every summer.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2009, 11:04:13 PM »
I would recommend Belvedere quite highly.  My rating of it from The Confidential Guide was based on a visit in the early 1980's (the first time I went to Crystal Downs) ... it is much better looked after today, and might get a 6 if I were still doing that sort of thing.

Bruce Hepner has been consulting there for several years now.  I just go play it once every summer.

Tom,
    What qualities of the course or features in particular lead you to recommending Belvedere quite highly?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2009, 11:22:01 PM »
Glad to see the bunkers restored for the tee shot on #7. It would be great if the bunkering on 16 was done.11 would also be a good one. Get that triangular shape back in the green and the front right bunker. Of course you can go around the whole course, hole by hole, and wish.
They should focus on getting the holes 1, 11, and 16 done first as per the 3 drawings in Golf Architecture in America.
8 would be a good one. I think the original green reached that single tree behind the green. Obviously that tree should go.
Found the 1938 aerial
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 11:29:52 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Mike_Cirba

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 11:34:52 PM »
Ok...that's pretty freaking cool.

Obviously, the bunkers that exist at Belvedere today that I compared on an earlier thread to something like Olympic Lake's bunkers bear no resemblance to what was on the ground back in the late 30s.

I'm curious if Olympic Lake's bunkers today look anything they did back then, as well?  .


RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 11:40:22 PM »
The original bunkering at Belvedere was supposed to have been done by Billy Bell. Was he involved at Olympic?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 11:47:09 PM »
One more photo.
This is the 16th green. There are supposed to be three bunkers around the right side at the bottom. I assume that whole slope would have been mown to fairway height. The 16th runs along the top right in the aerial.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Mike_Cirba

Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 11:51:04 PM »
The original bunkering at Belvedere was supposed to have been done by Billy Bell. Was he involved at Olympic?

Ralph,

I wasn't aware of Bell's involvement at Belvedere, but after seeing your aerial I'm not surprised.

Do you know much about the history of Charlevoix GC, where Watson also is credited, although my understanding is that golf was played there as early as 1898.

Thanks!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2009, 08:28:33 AM »
The original bunkering at Belvedere was supposed to have been done by Billy Bell. Was he involved at Olympic?

Ralph,

I wasn't aware of Bell's involvement at Belvedere, but after seeing your aerial I'm not surprised.

Do you know much about the history of Charlevoix GC, where Watson also is credited, although my understanding is that golf was played there as early as 1898.

Thanks!


Charlevoix GC is a 9 hole muni split by 31(the main road heading from Petoskey to Charlevoix).  I played it a bunch of times as a kid but none since.  I remember it being extremely flat and unremarkable.  Maybe I'll play a quick nine there this summer and report back.  It will be easier on the wallet than 9 at Belvedere.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2009, 10:55:43 AM »
Across the road, the second 9 begins with a straightforward 527 yard par 5. There's a little more movement to the land than it appears from the pics.






Hole 11 is a 390 yard par 4 that goes back towards the road & clubhouse.  From the right side of the fairway the green is partially hidden.






A very good bunkerless green complex.  Shown also from 12 tee.




The 12th hole is 422 yds with a bit of a crowned fairway.


Back downhill for the approach.


From behind the 12th green. 




The 13th is 389 yards back uphill.  The tees weren't under the tree quite the way this photo makes it appear.




The 14th is 175 yards.  If I remember correctly, this green was pretty uninteresting, leaving us to speculate that it might not be original.


Will finish up later today.







Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2009, 12:34:15 PM »
Is it just me or does the place look like it has a little bit of Meadow Club and Crystal Downs in it?

The bunkering would be the biggest difference, but the lay of the land, how the holes seem to sit on the gently rolling landscape is what seems similar.

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2009, 01:53:01 PM »
I absolutely love Belvedere, especially their greens and use of the land.  If one has a copy of George Thomas' 'Golf Arhitectrue in America,' there are Watson hole drawings of the 11th (page 93), 16th (page 113) where you can see the bunkers Mr. Linvingston says are missing, and the 1st hole (page 166).

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2009, 04:36:25 PM »
The original bunkering at Belvedere was supposed to have been done by Billy Bell. Was he involved at Olympic?

Ralph,
   Thanks for sharing the aerial. It would be great to see #8 go back to what was there in the past. It also looks like #9 was a bit more interesting with the old bunkering scheme. I can't really tell on #16 how the greenside bunkering affected play. It looks to be down below the slope to the right of the green. It looks like a few of the holes on the course could be improved with a return of the old bunkering scheme.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2009, 05:29:24 PM »
The original bunkering at Belvedere was supposed to have been done by Billy Bell. Was he involved at Olympic?

Ralph,
   Thanks for sharing the aerial. It would be great to see #8 go back to what was there in the past. It also looks like #9 was a bit more interesting with the old bunkering scheme. I can't really tell on #16 how the greenside bunkering affected play. It looks to be down below the slope to the right of the green. It looks like a few of the holes on the course could be improved with a return of the old bunkering scheme.

Actually you can see a couple of the dips that were the old bunkers in that photo. I just wish the photo better showed how steep that slope is. It would also be nice to have a shot that shows the convolutions on and around that green.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Belvedere Golf Club - Michigan
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2009, 08:31:46 PM »
The 15th is a short par 5, only 465 yards, that doglegs sharply right.  The outside of the dogleg is protected by a small lake on the left, while the inside is guarded by a large bunker.  It's a little over 200 yds to carry the bunker but you run the risk of going through the fairway if you hit driver.  A well positioned tee shot allows even a short hitter like me to go at the green which drops off from the fairway.  Sorry I didn't take more pictures of this.  I'm sure my description isn't very clear.


The green from a perfect spot in the upper fairway. 




The 16th is a 340 yard par 4 that goes back uphill a bit.  The green is built into the hillside beautifully.  A basic hole made great by the bunkerless green.











The 17th is a 179 yard par 3 uphill.  Sorry I didn't have any photos of the green. Maybe Tim Bert can rescue me...




The 18th runs back alongside the road.  It's a tough finishing hole, 430 yards.  Plenty of room and one more outstanding green awaits.  A tree somewhat complicates the approach.






The 18th green from behind. 


Should you visit Belvedere?  Hell yes.  It's about 50 miles from Traverse City and I think warrants play every bit as much as High Pointe.  I enjoyed it more, maybe just because it feels like a trip back in time.  According to the website, the course was built with 150 men and 5 teams of horses.  It fits the ground very well.  There are a few nondescript holes out there, but the greens alone are worth the trip.  $79 fee in season is well worth it.

If you make the trip, be sure to stop in Eastport on the way and marvel at the the combination gas station, IGA grocery, True Value hardware & paint, and wine shop.  Everything you need in one really eclectic retail location.   :D