[Jason Topp]

Hazeltine as now lengthened for the 2009 PGA (I'm not sure these yardages are up to date - the holes may be longer):

15 - 642 yds

16 - 402 cape hole with water on 3 sides of drive and surrounding the green

17 - 182 (I think it is longer now) uphill with water left and a very severe green forcing one to drain a 10 foot putt in order to two putt from above the hole.

18 - 474 uphill

All in a windy location, with rough last summer that limited one to a wedge recovery.

[PCCraig]

I haven't gotten the issue yet in the mail but I would nominate either Whistling Straights or Kiawah-Ocean with Kiawah getting the nod. Between 15 (par-5) 17 (the hardest par-3 anywhere in wind) and 18 a pretty darn hard par-4...I can't see a much tougher last 4 anywhere depending on the wind.

[Mike Erdmann]

Throw Crosswater into the mix...

15 is a par 4 at 414 yards
16 is a par 5 at 598 yards (over water)
17 is a par 3 at 244 yards (over water)
18 is a par 4 at 456 yards (over water)

Four very tough golf holes on a very tough golf course.

[Adam Clayman]

My God, like I said before, it's weird for me to strike a blow for Florida golf !!!

Matt, Did you ever consider that most difficult is not a badge of honor? It you didn't, maybe the term 'blow' is more elastic than you meant.

[Scott Szabo]

How about Sand Hills.

#15 460 par 4
#16 620 paf 5
#17 150 par 3
#18 450 par 4

If the wind's blowing the wrong direction, I'm not sure there would be a more difficult stretch in all of golf.

Also, Ballyneal could be thrown into the mix, with the wind playing a factor again.

#15 235 par 3
#16 530 par 5
#17 480 par 4
#18 460 par 4

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

Sand Hills and Ballyneal are fine choices -- but in both cases they lack added elements that can wreak big time scores beyond the wind dimension. The Champ has plenty of H20 always lurking for the slightest of burps that can happen.

Try to realize that if one throws the wind dimension into the picture the layout in Florida can really inflict some big time damage to the scorecard.

Jason:

Good call -- re: Hazeltine. The par-4 16th is your major trump card. The par-3 is a good one but it's more bogey and walk to the next tee -- the Florida ones are like Hannibal Lecter -- they can consume the whole body. The finale at Hazeltine is a tough closer -- but again without the H20 dimension it's more about bogeys than anything else.

With the PGA there this year will be interesting to match up the scoring average between the MN and FL layouts.



Adam:

Glad you can add so much to the discussion. Speaking of the word blow -- maybe you can add the second element 'hard" for your priceless contribution.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Though I've never played there, What about Crooked Stick?
#15-Par 5
#16-Par 4
#17-Par 3
#18-Par 4

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Chris Cupit]

The Honors Course has a tough finish and it has been lengthened considerably over the last few years.

#15 Par 4 490!!

Water all down the left, cutting across the fairway and left and partially fronting the green.  The old angled tee is not used and the new back tee restores the straight away tee shot which is far more difficult than the cape tee shot.

At 455 yards in the 85 Southern Am Rob MacNamara came to the hole with a 2 shot lead, made triple and went to #16 with a 3 shot lead!

#16 210 par 3

Pretty stock Pete Dye across water fronted by rocks.  Deep bunkers behind and an easy double or higher

#17  490 Par 5

Easiest hole of course of the four but no real gimmie.  Blind drive to a dogleg left with the fairway and "feel" of the tee shot working away from you.  Easy lay up but Big Bertha front and left catches a lot of people going for the green in two.  Very severe green.

#18  490 Par 4

Another lengthened hole that always required a decent carry to reach the built up fairway.  Now it is real easy to slightly miss the tee shot and be left with zero for a second shot.  Enough trees, fescue and native stuff combined with the excessive length that almost guarrantees a horribly rushed and tense swing.  Another pretty easy double.

[Joe Andriole]

Canterbury

[David_Elvins]

Matt Ward,

I would nominate St Andrews when coming home into the wind. OB right in every hole.   Everyone know 17 is hard but 15 and 16 are difficult into the wind.  I think there is something about the psychology of 4 par 4s in a row as well. 

Oh, and Royal Melbourne Composite in its current hole order.  Again, 4 par 4s in a row (3 over 450 yards) makes it really hard to make birdie.

[Joe Hancock]

Matt Ward,

I would nominate St Andrews when coming home into the wind. OB right in every hole.   Everyone know 17 is hard but 15 and 16 are difficult into the wind.  I think there is something about the psychology of 4 par 4s in a row as well. 

Oh, and Royal Melbourne Composite in its current hole order.  Again, 4 par 4s in a row (3 over 450 yards) makes it really hard to make birdie.

Oh David....

You didn't follow the rules. Please, hide.

Joe

[J_ Crisham]

My contribution is Beverly CC in Chicago. 15  is 465yds -a very tight hole with strong bunkering. 16 is 440yds into a prevailing wind,again very well bunkered. 17 is 227yds to a small, well bunkered green that is severely tilted-Nicklaus 4 putted this beast to throw away the Western Open. 18 is 595yds where the dogleg begins at 285 yds. Again very well bunkered to a severe green. Possibly the toughest final four in Chicago. Makes the 19th hole taste even better!             Jack   

[K. Krahenbuhl]

When I saw your name Jack I thought of Beverly...it gets my vote.

[J_ Crisham]

Another candidate is the North course at Olympia Fields. 15 is about 575yds with lots of trouble down the right side. 16 is a very tough club selection at 210 yds downhill with water and great bunkering. 17 is a strong par4 of 435 yds or so with water down the right and severe bunkering-my favorite hole on the course. 18 is about 480 yds dogleg left to a green that can have some of the severest placements on the course. Great finish to an underrated  course .   Jack

[David Neveux]

Oakland Hills South,

Although the 18th plays as a par 4 for the Tour Pro's, It's a par 5 for the rest of us. 

[Matt_Ward]

Given the examples that have come forward I think it's fair to say a scale needs to be developed that puts more emphasis on the par-5 and par-3 contribution to the mix.

Getting two tough long par-4's is fairly straightforward for many places.

Getting the par-3 and par-5 side of the equation is not that easy so I'd put a bit more emphasis on that front.

I've yet to see a par-5 that is tougher than the finale at The Champion at PGA National.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Lansdowne - Norman.  End of discussion!

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Hold the phone amigo -- I played the hole you mentioned -- the issue is more about the approach to the green. The tee shot and second shot are fairly conventional -- no where near the strategic elements found with the Fl layout. Good call though.

[JESII]

Matt,

I last played the Champ in about '02 and am pretty sure they did some work on the course soon after my last play (in prep for The Tour), what did they do to #18 to make it so difficult?  Previously, I would call it good and fairly tough, but not without peer...

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - hole?  we're talking final 4 holes.  Believe me - I don't think there is much character to these holes.  But if you are talking difficulty - geez, these are nightmares!

The sign Norman posted on the 15th tee sums up what he thought.

"Beware, you are about to play golf's longest mile"

J

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt C:

No doubt -- you are right - it's arbitrary but then again it's my thread.

Good call on Firestone -- but the 18th at the Champ is still a big better than the Monster from OH. The 15th at Firestone South is also a dud when held against the two from Florida. The only real possibility you have is with the 18th being better than the 16th at the Champ -- although I think architecturally the 17th is a better hole.

You said harder, not better.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim S:

Brad K does give a good sense of the hole in his writings in the current Golfweek issue.

The main elements start right at the tee box -- you don't see the botton of the landing areas -- it's always about focusing on a given "area" and then having the total sense of confidence in being able to pull the shot off.

At the tee you have to determine how much do you wish to gamble on the tee shot. There are bunkers down that side and those who wimp out can always bail out right -- the main issue with that is the overall length of the hole BECOMES EVEN more the case.

Generally, in the winter months the hole provides for a headwind -- sometimes it's pushing from left-to-right and you need to be sure not to allow your tee shot to be pushed that far right.

THEN THE FUN REALLY STARTS ...

You can't see the fullness of what you need to do with the second shot. The land dips a bit and the water that seems out to the far right actually does angle big time back into the picture. There is a choke-point -- about 140-150 yards out and you have to decide to either challenge the choke point or again lay back. Laying back avoids the water and bunkers that pinch in at the choke point but then you are left with an even longer approach to a green that doesn't accept mediocre aproaches.

If you get past the choke point you still have to hit a well played  wedge approach.

Once you get onto the green you need to be aware of the contours and a quick three-jack is never out of question.

The hole is a real ball buster for the better player because birdies do not happen as often as they usually do on such holes. The higher handicap plaer can make a relatively easy bogey if they accept their own limitations on each shot played.

Just a tough hole and I'll be watching very closely again when the big boys arrive in town to play there.

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Have you played the current final four holes at The Champion at PGA National. If you have -- then you'd realize the Lansdowne holes are more mktg hype than anything else.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott:

Sand Hills and Ballyneal are fine choices -- but in both cases they lack added elements that can wreak big time scores beyond the wind dimension. The Champ has plenty of H20 always lurking for the slightest of burps that can happen.

Matt,

Given that criteria - water in play that can wreak big time scores - I'll throw out a Pete Dye course that gets lost in the mix.  Plum Creek in Castle Rock, Colorado is a typical Dye course with a 5-4-3-4 finish.  Water on the closing three holes ala Sawgrass. 

#16 is about 460 with water all the way from tee to green on the right.

#17 is about 140, ala Sawgrass, but does not feature an island green.  It does have fronting water and a very shallow green.

#18 is about 450 and is reminiscent of Bay Hill, although the green sits aside the water, rather than wrapping around it.

[Mike Wagner]

Where's the referee in this thread?

Matt - you win - great job!

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