[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

Glad you can add so much to the discussion. Speaking of the word blow -- maybe you can add the second element 'hard" for your priceless contribution.

Matt,

Incase you didn't get the drift, your notion of toughness is about as germane to quality architecture as the tone of your first response to this thread is to being civil. Your rules indeed!

Guys here's the deal for those who may not understand English ...

It's a final four in the USA with the following conditions ...

*has to have one par-3 in the mix

*has to have one par-5 in the mix

For all others start your own thread and title it however you want.

Got it now ...

Speaking of Dick's...

You dont like my take on the subject and want to control others responses. Sie Gehe Gesund.
BTW,

What Magazine are you rating for now? I just can not keep track.
I remember the good old days when you would preface every sentence detailing your affiliation. "As a golf digest panelist...."

[Ronald Montesano]

I hope I detect sarcasm in Mike Wagner's response.  If not, pity.

I'm disappointed we're not discussing the toughest final 18 holes, or the best final 18 holes, or the sunniest final 18 holes.  Anyone interested in sewing those threads?

There's a little course northeast of Cleveland that is the product of a demented mind.  It is called Thunder Hill and once was a fish hatchery.  As such, it has water, water, everywhere.  Here's the link:  http://www.thunderhillgolf.com

A close friend of great wisdom and sagacity has played the course and proclaimed it the most difficult course anywhere, and he has played Oakmont under appallingly fast conditions.  Given my trust in his wisdom, please click here:

http://www.thunderhillgolf.com/golf/proto/thunderhillgolf/course/course_tour/THThole15.html

and then continue clicking next until you agree that this closes the book.

[Mike Wagner]

Ronald - indeed 

Seems to me this thread was started with a conclusion.  I feel bad for folks who have made fine suggestions only to be lambasted!  Booooooooring.....

[Pat Burke]

Torrey South proved pretty difficult with the new yardage

[Matt_Ward]

Pat B:

Curious to know if you've played at PGA National's The Champion Course and any comments you might have?

Mike W:

There is no "winner" -- I just wanted to see what others can provide on
the topic. I saluted Golfweek for including the stats with its current issue on holes played on Tour and I found it interesting to see how a Florida course like PGA National's Champion is quite prominent in the final summary.

I also mentioned -- in the event you missed it - that the inclusion of Hazeltine National would be interesting when the PGA is played there later this year so one can compare the stats to the final four played at the Honda event.

Others have mentioned other solid contenders - like the final four at The Ocean Course at Kiawah or from Canterbury, et al.

Adam:

The thread's title is what it is.

If it doesn't conform to exactly to what you want things to be -- then avoid it instead of providing your typical "hold-your-nose" pose that is really tiresome.

Your drift is exactly that -- drift.

I fully comprehend the differences between the assessment of courses on far broader architectural terms than just narrower ones. Try to realize others have added difficulty as a stand alone item as an aside to be mentioned. Doak did it in CG with his sub categories like "most ammo" and the like.

My original intent was on USA-based courses with at least one par-3 and one par-5 in the final four. I wanted to define it in that way to see what other candidates would be mentioned -- simple as that -- not as you predictably and erroneously concluded as a desire to "control others responses." People were mentioning courses that didn't fit those boundaries and I specifically added those dimensions - not to rein in what they offered but to provide a more clear road map for such selections.  End of story.

[Ronald Montesano]

I agree with you, Matt.  It is your thread and you got there first.  Others can start their own threads on "four of a kind" or "full house" finishers.

Did you visit the Thunder Hill site?  How tight do those drives look?

A course that I forgot to mention was Whistling Straits' Straits course and, now that I think of it, Blackwolf Run River.

[Pat Burke]

Matt, played PGA Nat back in the 90s   Those were 4 nasty holes back then
Always seemed to be a cross wind, and on the rare days with little wind, still difficult.

Weston Hills finish down the road was another pretty tough one, again, alwyas seemed to be a left to right cross wind

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