[Gene Greco]

     Said by Vince Cellini of the Golf Channel tonight on "The 19th Hole."

                                     Your thoughts?

[paul cowley]

I agree ....I'd change the the heck out of the back nine...but I'm just me.

[Mark Bourgeois]

But Gene, it's not like this is Pebble's first trip under the knife.

Couldn't he as easily have said, "If they can do it at Pebble they can do it at Augusta?"

Or did he mean it in a positive way somehow?

[Matt_Cohn]

they already have - see 3, 5, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 18.

[Gene Greco]

      Mark:

              I believe his statement was a declaration of great courses going under the knife for tournament purposes as being the accepted "norm."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, put another log on the fire, I guess.

Vince would have been on surer ground if he had made the comparison to what's happening to links on the Rota.

There is a fiction being perpetrated about golfers wanting to play the same shots as the pros, but other than a putt or a chip name one full shot people head out on the course to copy, using the same club.

Anybody out there try to replicate Nicklaus's 1 iron?

Bifurcation today, bifurcation tomorrow, bifurcation forever.  The CEO of Callaway is on board officially - one down, Titleist, Adidas and the USGA to go!

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

As the late, great Telly Savalas used to say, "Bifurcation, Baby!"  Keep bringing it on, Marco.

[BCrosby]

Did Telly say "Bifurcation" just before or just after he said "Who loves ya, baby?" It makes a difference.

[Rich Goodale]

Sorry, Bob, but I never had the opportunity to play in a threesome with Telly.   Did you?

[Tom Huckaby]

There is a fiction being perpetrated about golfers wanting to play the same shots as the pros, but other than a putt or a chip name one full shot people head out on the course to copy, using the same club.

#7 at Pebble.  They hit wedge, I hit wedge.  Most tee shots on non par threes - they hit driver, I hit driver.

But outside of that you make a good point.

That being said.... I think only fools believe they're hitting the same clubs into greens that pros do if we mortals play the same tees.  But I also believe the delsusions of TRYING to do so are a great part of the fun of the game.

Thus I remain wary of bifurcation.  Removing the delusion would seem to do more harm than good to me.

TH

[rjsimper]

     Mark:

              I believe his statement was a declaration of great courses going under the knife for tournament purposes as being the accepted "norm."

This of course begs the question....accepted by whom?

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

It is the illusion of PRETENDING rather than TRYING which keeps unifurcation alive.  Try as hard as we may, we all suck relative to the pros, and thinking otherwise is only pretense.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

It is the illusion of PRETENDING rather than TRYING which keeps unifurcation alive.  Try as hard as we may, we all suck relative to the pros, and thinking otherwise is only pretense.

Rich

OH I get that we suck relative to the pros.  Believe me I do.  I get that I suck relative to good amateurs.

That's not the issue, to me anyway.

For any given one shot, I can be as good as them.  And I'd say the same thing for my 36 handicap Dad.

Having them play with different equipment and different rules codifies something I just don't want codified... because I know I suck, I realize I suck, but yes, PRETENDING to be like them remains great fun.  And if I can make it happen for one shot, why not two?

It's an age-old argument.  And I get too that they use different (better) equipment.  But playing by the same rules seems fundamental to me. 

But of course it's not so simple.  Destruction of classic venues in the name of testing tour pros needs to be utterly cryit downe as well.

BUT... to how many courses does that really happen?

And not to be callous, but is it worth changing the very nature of the game to save these few courses from themselves? No one is holding any of their owners to a knife and forcing them to change....

Isn't a better answer just having the pros play elsewhere?

TH

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

You are pretending if you really think that:

"For any given one shot, I can be as good as them.  And I'd say the same thing for my 36 handicap Dad."

Can your Dad (or you for that matter...) hit a 230 yard cut 3-iron that floats softly onto the green?  Can either of you reach the 18th at Pebble Beach in two, or hit a 50 yard punched 9-iron on a fast and firm course that takes one bounce and then stops close to the pin?

We pretend we can play like the pros, but we really cannot--even those on this board that have been pros, at least consistently.  If Tom Lehman is still a GCA.com member and just lurking I'll give him a pass, but not your father!

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

You are pretending if you really think that:

"For any given one shot, I can be as good as them.  And I'd say the same thing for my 36 handicap Dad."

Can your Dad (or you for that matter...) hit a 230 yard cut 3-iron that floats softly onto the green?  Can either of you reach the 18th at Pebble Beach in two, or hit a 50 yard punched 9-iron on a fast and firm course that takes one bounce and then stops close to the pin?

We pretend we can play like the pros, but we really cannot--even those on this board that have been pros, at least consistently.  If Tom Lehman is still a GCA.com member and just lurking I'll give him a pass, but not your father!

Rich

Rich:  of course we can't compare with their best shots, their average shots, or even most of their worst shots.

But I have seen my Dad hit shots to some greens at his beloved par three course that Tiger Woods would accept.  You have to get what I mean here.... it's mostly not in the HOW it happens, it's in the result.  But yes, sometimes it's even in the how... not on shots that you mention, for sure, but on others... freakish miracles can and do happen in this great game....

And therein lies a lot of the joy in the pretending.

The main point though to me remains the rest of my post.  Is it indeed worth changing the very nature of the game only to save these courses from themselves?  What else is gained?

TH

[JMEvensky]

Well, put another log on the fire, I guess.

Vince would have been on surer ground if he had made the comparison to what's happening to links on the Rota.

There is a fiction being perpetrated about golfers wanting to play the same shots as the pros, but other than a putt or a chip name one full shot people head out on the course to copy, using the same club.

Anybody out there try to replicate Nicklaus's 1 iron?

Bifurcation today, bifurcation tomorrow, bifurcation forever.  The CEO of Callaway is on board officially - one down, Titleist, Adidas and the USGA to go!

Mark

Not trying to be a smart ass,but what would be the practical implications of bifurcation?

If the rules forced certain I and B restrictions on Pro's or USGA contestants,wouldn't those restrictions eventually filter down to regional and state level tournaments?Those are mostly the guys playing in USGA events.Then I'd imagine college tournaments would follow as well.City championships wouldn't want to be different than the bigger tournaments so they'd join.Finally,I can't imagine anyone would want their club championship decided using "non-professional" equipment.Who would be left?The guys who used Polaris golf balls and put Vaseline on their drivers?


For me,I realized a long time ago the different level of talent between Tour Pro's and everyone else.But,I still want some small simulacrum of comparativeness.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow that was well said JME and I concur 100%.

Kudos also for the use of the world "simulacrum."  I took several years of Latin many years ago which helped me to guess at the meaning... but still I had to look it up.  It is PERFECTLY used.

Definitions:

1.  An image or representation.
2.  An unreal or vague semblance.

 

[JMEvensky]

Wow that was well said JME and I concur 100%.

Kudos also for the use of the world "simulacrum."  I took several years of Latin many years ago which helped me to guess at the meaning... but still I had to look it up.  It is PERFECTLY used.

Definitions:

1.  An image or representation.
2.  An unreal or vague semblance.

 

Thanks.I figure I owed you after being the first to "contrast" your game with Tour Pro's.Now,everyone is piling on.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would love to write him an email.  Does anyone have Vince's email?  You can send it to me privately as well.   Thanks

[jeffwarne]

How would bifurcation affect Tom's dad or anyone else?
If the pros use slightly limited equipment to hit it a small percentage shorter, why would that affect anyone's game?
Your equipment wouldn't change and if you're comparing yourself to a touring pro, well, that's just silly.
You'd probably see a lot of good players using pro equipment out of ego (ala those who use Mizuno blades with 10 handicaps )
Baseball has wooden bats for pros.
Hitting a ball into or near the hole doesn't make your shot comparable to a pros-just the result.

Stop ruining the courses. Simple solution that the sooner sane minds get behind instead of fighting, the sooner the game can move on and stop the needless remodeling.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Are we better off today than we were 15 years ago? What has this technology revolution given us?

Longer rounds, $500 drivers, fewer participants. It would appear the opportunity to play the same equipment as the pros - ho ho, there's another fiction! - is driving people away from the game, and poorer for the experience.

The Callaway CEO's argument if I recall was not to reign in the pros but that the game is too hard for too many.

In other words, and in contrast to the conventional wisdom levied against bifurcation, technology combined with lax regulation has widened the gap between pro and shmoe.

By this logic, bifurcation would narrow the gap. We give up their equipment but in return get a game that looks more like the pros, at least for those who prefer to remain in thrall to the delusion that pros play the same game.

Interestingly, the only publication I found mention of his stance was the Economist, at least as of a few months ago. Why is that? Why is no one having a debate over this, or at least to the extent one would expect when one of the equipment majors gets on board?

Why isn't the USGA making common cause with Callaway? How many of us have been made aware of Callaway's stance?

Bowling figured this out, surely the smarter and richer people associated with the game of golf can, too - even if we have to take those Pro V1s by prying them out of the pros' cold, dead hands.

Mark

[jeffwarne]

Are we better off today than we were 15 years ago? What has this technology revolution given us?

Longer rounds, $500 drivers, fewer participants. It would appear the opportunity to play the same equipment as the pros - ho ho, there's another fiction! - is driving people away from the game, and poorer for the experience.

The Callaway CEO's argument if I recall was not to reign in the pros but that the game is too hard for too many.

In other words, and in contrast to the conventional wisdom levied against bifurcation, technology combined with lax regulation has widened the gap between pro and shmoe.

By this logic, bifurcation would narrow the gap. We give up their equipment but in return get a game that looks more like the pros, at least for those who prefer to remain in thrall to the delusion that pros play the same game.

Interestingly, the only publication I found mention of his stance was the Economist, at least as of a few months ago. Why is that? Why is no one having a debate over this, or at least to the extent one would expect when one of the equipment majors gets on board?

Why isn't the USGA making common cause with Callaway? How many of us have been made aware of Callaway's stance?

Bowling figured this out, surely the smarter and richer people associated with the game of golf can, too - even if we have to take those Pro V1s by prying them out of the pros' cold, dead hands.

Mark

And Mark,
That's just it-the game is already bifurcated, but in the wrong direction.
How many amateurs spend hours on the launch monitor, getting access to just the right shaft, loft, ball, dimple pattern.

Go to a tour ball and a steel (with a weight minimum equivalent to today's lightweight steel)shaft and simplify this madness.and no tolerances-it either conforms or it doesn't.

Most anyone who thinks they're playing what a pro plays-isn't-even if they think they are.

[Rich Goodale]

JM

You are spot on.  The reason for "bifurcation" is;

1.  It WILL eventually lead to most players playing what balls and euqipment which the pros do
2.  It will stop the extension of courses (new and existing) to lengths which are so beyond human ken that we cannot relate to them

Jeff

Amen.

Mark

Well summed up and moved forward, hoipefully.

Rich

[Gene Greco]

"This of course begs the question....accepted by whom?"


     For the most part, not by this group.

The tour and media who cover it appear to think otherwise based on Cellini's statement.

The courses no matter how great or storied are simply a means to an end.

[Tom Huckaby]

JM/Rich:

See light bulb go on.

 

SOOOOOOO... the point is if we bifurcate, then everyone's just gonna use the pro stuff eventually anyway?

Duh... I am so slow on the uptake sometimes.

Put me down as for bifurcation now.  God this makes great sense.

Thanks, guys.

TH

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