[PCCraig]

That's why I said leave it as is for the US Open, Pat (that is, mow it to the cliff on right, leave the left as rough).  We want to force them to play between the bunker and the cliff, particularly if they want to reach the green in two.

But for everyday play I think Mike's idea is a great one.  It gives a choice where none exists now.  I think that's fun.

In any case it's moot as that cart path ain't going anywhere, that's for sure.

TH

Thanks for answering. I'm not really familiar with the course other than for what I have seen on TV/Books.

[Anthony Gray]

  I don't think these changes are dramatic overall. It is going to play a little longer on 9 and 10 which as stated only means driver insted of a 3 wood. The wind is the biggest factor for how the course will play for the open.

   Anthony

[JohnV]

  I don't think these changes are dramatic overall. It is going to play a little longer on 9 and 10 which as stated only means driver insted of a 3 wood. The wind is the biggest factor for how the course will play for the open.

   Anthony

Exactly right about the wind.  I would have described the weather as perfect the day we played, but since it is even better here today I can't use that term. 

The wind was blowing pretty strongly from the northwest (down the coast line at Pebble). 

We played the blue tees and on 10 I hit driver 8-iron which is pretty darn far for me.

On 13 I hit a good drive and still had a 4-iron to the green.

On 14 one of our guys who is a pretty long hitter killed a drive and 3-wood and still had 7-iron to the green.

By the time we got to 18 the wind had died down a lot so it was much more playable.  I hit driver, 5-iron, 9-iron.

[TEPaul]

The following statements from the Golf Channel.com article are interesting to me, particularly since I have very little idea what Neville’s 1919 course and its principles were like. What are the “archives” and the material from it that they’ve scoured and will attempt to restore?

“More importantly, the golf course will bear a much stronger resemblance to architect Jack Neville’s 1919 design. Pebble Beach has always been breathtaking. But Neville’s original was also dangerous and treacherous.

“To do this we’ve scoured the archives to get a clear understanding of the overall original design principles.
 
“The location of new bunkers, tees and trees all fall within the original concepts of the design. They are, for the most part, simply placed to accommodate today’s standard of championship play, from the championship tees.”

[TEPaul]

I suppose the other obvious historical question about the architectural evolution of Pebble Beach is why they felt the need to alter the original Neville course to what they did to it for the 1929 US. Amateur. Is there some record in the archives indicating what might have been wrong with the Neville course for the '29 Amateur?

[JESII]

Is the ability to reach the green in two even a question for the guys playing in a US Open?

I would think some guys might hit a three wood off the tee to stay back from the hill a bit...improving their visual on the second shot.

Am I missing somehting?

Google Earth measured 220 yards to the center of the green after a 300 yard drive.

[Tom Huckaby]

Is the ability to reach the green in two even a question for the guys playing in a US Open?

I would think some guys might hit a three wood off the tee to stay back from the hill a bit...improving their visual on the second shot.

Am I missing somehting?

Google Earth measured 220 yards to the center of the green after a 300 yard drive.

I'd agree it's easily reachable for the US Open field, Jim.

These changes are just gonna make it tougher to do.  They won't reach from in the bunkers unless they get a VERY lucky lie... and obviously rolling into the ocean eliminates it.  So yes, some may lay back short of the bunkers - but Google that if you would be so kind - I'm guessing if they do that, it's 250+ at least to the green.... on the direct route, out over the cliff... and what Google won't show you (but hopefully the pics here do at least a little) is that it is also VERY much uphill.  Note also that laying back doesn't improve the visual all that much... it's always gonna be mostly blind.

So sure, it's reachable.  It's a birdie hole.  But these changes are gonna make that 4 a little more hard-earned... either with a great tee shot or a fantastic 2nd after a laid-up tee shot.

TH

[Sean_Tully]

I suppose the other obvious historical question about the architectural evolution of Pebble Beach is why they felt the need to alter the original Neville course to what they did to it for the 1929 US. Amateur. Is there some record in the archives indicating what might have been wrong with the Neville course for the '29 Amateur?

To say that the changes go back to Neville and Grant's design are on there own rather silly. The golfers of the day panned the course almost unanimously. The course was hardly a year old and they had Herbert Fowler making changes to the course. Another example, when Egan made his changes he shifted the 6th and 9th fairways almost a 1/2 fairway width towards the ocean!! That to me doesn't sound like the fairways were very close to the water?

Tully

[Anthony Gray]

  It does not seem that these changes would affect the average golfer.

  Anthony

[Peter Pallotta]

TE - that was an interesting question, so I did a quick seach of the Golf Illustrated articles leading up to the '29 Amateur. Here are three articles from G. O. West.  (They are now the only things I know about the original PB.) In the first, there doesn't seem to have been much wrong with Pebble, except for the 5th hole; by the last, we learn that the course has been lengthened and many of the greens have been re-done:

From mid 1927:

"It is now taken for granted that the 1929 National Amateur will be played over the picturesque Pebble Beach links. Nothing official has been released, but the insiders seem to think it is practically settled. The course as it now stands is a championship layout, but it is said that at least $30,000 will be spent in bringing it up to a top-notch condition. One expectation is that the Canary Cottage fifth hole will be completely changed. Otherwise the course will be hard to improve except in minor matters."

From early-1928:

"The writer has talked with leading golfers from all sections of the coast since Pebble Beach was selected by the U.S.G.A. for the 1929 National Amateur and he finds the election universally popular. All agree that the scenic links along Carmel Bay can be put into satisfactory championship condition with the expenditure of even a less amount than the Del Monte Properties Company has already agreed to expend.  Nearly every one has declared that the second nine with the exception of adding a trap or two, could hardly be improved. The reconstruction of the course for the championship is in the hands of the following committee: Robert Hunter, Chandler Egan and Roger Lapham, the latter acting as chairman."

From mid 1928:

"Speaking of Pebble Beach, the making over of the links is completed and the fifteen months nursing period has begun. The greens, practically all of which are made over, have been carefully seeded to Cocoos Bent, the new grass which has proven so remarkably successful—at least on the Pacific Coast. They will be given their first important test next September when the California championship is held, and a year later are expected to be in the finest possible condition. The new course is 6705 yards long, the old course was 6480. The holes are better balanced than they formerly were, only seven of them remaining the same length as before."

[Tom Huckaby]

  It does not seem that these changes would affect the average golfer.

  Anthony

You don't think so?

I sure do.  Obviously the new back tees are meaningless - none will use them.  But mowing those holes all the way out to the cliffs will indeed make such holes a lot harder - balls that would have stopped will now go down the cliff.

TH

[JESII]

Tom,

The back tee on the Google image is about 10 yards below the road back there...maybe they've lengthened?   As it is in the image, it is 235 to the bunker(s) so I doubt many would lay that far back...a 275 tee shot (3 wood - downhill) leaves 240 to the center of the green.

I wonder if an option to go left would attract some of them for a better visual even if the total yardage were 20 or 30 yards further?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - makes sense re the yardages.  I don't think they have (or can) put a new tee further back - there's really not much room to do that without impinging on #14.  You can likely see that from the aerial.  But maybe they do figure that out... as those distances are indeed short for the big boys.

But you do have to keep in mind the uphill.  240 to the center means effectively playing more like 265.  If that's a normal easy shot - and I suppose it is for many - then there's nothing this hole can do to stop it.

What will be different is that those who try to get closer will now really have more risk of going over the cliff.

As for the left option, heck yeah that would be attractive, as discussed earlier in this thread....

TH

[JESII]

I suppose the other obvious historical question about the architectural evolution of Pebble Beach is why they felt the need to alter the original Neville course to what they did to it for the 1929 US. Amateur. Is there some record in the archives indicating what might have been wrong with the Neville course for the '29 Amateur?

Tom,

Interesting to me that you use the term "wrong with the course" in your question. Don't you think they were just hoping the course would hold up against the big boys?

[Anthony Gray]

  It does not seem that these changes would affect the average golfer.

  Anthony

You don't think so?

I sure do.  Obviously the new back tees are meaningless - none will use them.  But mowing those holes all the way out to the cliffs will indeed make such holes a lot harder - balls that would have stopped will now go down the cliff.

TH

  I just do not see it as a course that has a lot of roll. 9 and 10 yes. But the average golfer does not drive it over the hill on 9 or past the slope on 10 where the ball is going to roll the most.

  Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:

I see 9 and 10 as having pretty hard slopes to the right.. particularly 9.  Mow those holes as fairway all the way to the cliff-edge and those common slices that would have stopped now go over the edge....

Same goes for all of the other holes.

I think it will make a difference.

TH

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:

I see 9 and 10 as having pretty hard slopes to the right.. particularly 9.  Mow those holes as fairway all the way to the cliff-edge and those common slices that would have stopped now go over the edge....

Same goes for all of the other holes.

I think it will make a difference.

TH

  How about for someone with stiff legs and a right foot behind the left at address. Those guys have to hit it right to left away from the cliffs

  Anthony

[Tom Huckaby]

Now I just don't know who you might be talking about, Anthony.

 

[Jay Flemma]

I wonder if Neville had the sightlines set so that you can see 3 cart paths from the tee box ...


Now for a radical idea, why not have fairway LEFT of the new bunker complex (removing the cart path of course)?   It would be potentially a safer play but less chance of going for the green in two.  

I like that idea!

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