Yale Farm Golf Club Gets Favorable Ruling

[Pete Stankevich]

This project has been going on for 7 years now.

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-yalefarm0113.artjan13,0,7911588.story

[Jim_Kennedy]

.....and it will probably be going on 7 years from now. Neither side will give in and they each have enough disposable cash to keep on slugging it out in the courts forever.

[Joel_Stewart]

THE COURSE:The golf course at the Yale Farm Golf Club will be one of the most beautiful in the world. Designed by renowned golf architect Ken Dye, Yale Farm’s 18-hole championship golf course will encompass and celebrate the beauty of the Litchfield Hills, the varied and rugged terrain, breathtaking views and the abundant wildlife and natural resources that make Yale Farm a special place. Dye’s attention to detail will be evident throughout the golf course. Tees, fairways, bunkers and greens will be respectively woven into the existing natural fabric of forests, pastures and wetlands. A skillful combination of world class design and sound environmental planning will ensure Yale Farm Golf Club’s rank among the world’s finest golf courses.

[Mike Sweeney]

.....and it will probably be going on 7 years from now. Neither side will give in and they each have enough disposable cash to keep on slugging it out in the courts forever.

Jim,

It would seem like a stretch to see a Bull's Bridge II model these days. Thoughts on what they would actually build?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The DEP restrictions are absurd !

Courses like ANGC, Merion, Winged Foot, Plainfield, The Creek, Baltusrol, Seminole and many others where either creeks, streams and/or ponds are on the site and an integral part of the golf course have co-existed favorably with the environment for close to a century.

These DEP restrictions represent the end of integrating water features with GCA and the routine play of golf courses.

The pendulum has swung to far in one direction.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Even in the boom times I could never figure BB out. They weren't building any housing, only a few club cottages, and there aren't any good places to stay within 20 or 30 miles of the place. Even though we have our fair share of wealthy folks in the area, they just aren't here in the numbers you'd need to achieve a healthy membership of 350, what they were shooting for.

As for Canaan, there will be housing, expensive housing, and 250k seems to be the number that's been bandied about for a membership. If Roland Betts has a whole lot of friends it might work, eventually (I think eventually is a long way off    ).   
But..... local chatter says that investors have been ducking out of the Silo Ridge project, and there's no activity over at the old Tom Carvel property in Pine Plains.

Pat,
Not every water system is the same, and in this instance underground water, cold underground water, that leeches out into the small waterways like Ginger Creek and Hollow Brook, keep temperatures down which lets trout flourish in that area. One of the issues up there was diverting that water into irrigation ponds. Even though there would be discharge, and depletion, the hotter water poses a threat to the fish and the system, plus there are/were other issues.
(Just reporting, not taking a stand, before you give me hell remember what I do for a living  )
   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Where is the "hotter" water coming from ?

[Craig Sweet]

The water warms in the ponds and then is discharged into the colder, free flowing stream?  Most trout do not like water temps above 65 degrees...as the water warms there is less oxygen in the water.

[Craig Sweet]

Pat...you said  "the DEP restrictions are absurd !"

Have you read them?

Specifically which restriction do you find absurd and why? Details please

What are your qualifications to declare them absurd? 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Craig had it right 

A friend of mine built a 9 hole exec on some family land that's not more than a 1/2 mile from YF, and he was open before there was any plan in the works for that site. He breezed through all the regulatory agencies but he had no water issues to deal with.

[Craig Sweet]

Jim, it does not seem unreasonable to me if a business is going to take water from a stream (or any other source) and discharge back into the stream, that it returns it in the same quality that it was when removed...I also would have some pretty big questions about a permit application that did not include future housing impacts as well....

[Patrick_Mucci]

The water warms in the ponds and then is discharged into the colder, free flowing stream?  Most trout do not like water temps above 65 degrees...as the water warms there is less oxygen in the water.

If the pond and creeks/stream have been there for 3,000 years, why is it suddenly the golf course that's responsible for the warmer water in the pond ?

How do the trout like it when a sharp lure punctures their mouth and they end up in a skillet ?

Is fishing banned at this site ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat...you said  "the DEP restrictions are absurd !"

That's correct

Have you read them?

I have read DEP restrictions

Specifically which restriction do you find absurd and why? Details please


Let's start with the offsets from waterways in which you can float a popsicle stick in.

What are your qualifications to declare them absurd? 

Reasonable intelligence and Common Sense.

[Craig Sweet]

Read these specific regs...Pat


Permit Requirements

To ensure that YFGC complies with all permit conditions and protections for wetlands, watercourses and water supply, the DEP staff proposed a unique system of oversight: the hiring of a "Third Party Monitor" as a condition of granting the permit applications. YFGC would pay for the cost of the independent monitor, who would need to be approved by the DEP.

DEP staff is recommending that the permittee be required to provide annual training to all golf course employees and consultants whose responsibilities may involve any of the terms and conditions of the permit.

In addition, DEP staff proposed that final permits granted by DEP require:

    * A 150-foot buffer around all wetlands (and any watercourses they may contain) and a 200-foot buffer on both sides of Hollow Brook, wherein no development, exclusive of the development proposal contained in the applications, may occur
    * Designation and protection of 28.6 acres of the site as a permanent habitat for grassland birds
    * All preserved areas (wetland/watercourse buffers, vernal pool no-development zones, state-listed plant species setbacks, grassland bird habitat) to be protected by conservation restrictions granted to a land trust and permanently recorded in municipal land records
    * Monitoring of on-site ground water levels to detect drought conditions and any unanticipated long-term water level reduction caused by the withdrawal of ground water. If groundwater levels become too low, the applicant will be required to reduce or eliminate use of groundwater until water levels recover

The staff recommendation also endorsed protections proposed by the applicant, following discussions with DEP staff. These include:

Mitigation of wetland impacts:

    * 8.47 acres of wetland creation
    * 4.95 acres of wetland enhancement
    * 37.03 acres of wetland/upland preservation

Conservation of Sensitive Natural Habitats:

    * Restricted development surrounding vulnerable amphibian habitat (vernal pools) including no development within 100 feet of the pool and no more than 25% development (including golf course construction) within 750 feet of the pool
    * Permanent preservation and protection of areas surrounding state-listed (endangered/threatened/special concern) plant species

Water Quality Protection:

    * Stormwater Best Management Practices (BMP’s) to treat runoff from impervious surface
    * Integrated Pest Management (IPM) plan to reduce the amount of pesticides to the absolute minimum necessary
    * Bioretention areas to receive and treat runoff from golf course areas
    * "No Pesticide Zones" where golf course areas come in contact with wetlands
    * Surface and groundwater quality monitoring plans to detect any water quality deterioration
    * Incorporation of low impact design elements

Water Quantity Protection:

    * Strict limitations on the amount of ground water to be used for irrigation and potable water supplies including DEP-mandated groundwater withdrawal restrictions during drought periods
    * Third-party monitoring of groundwater withdrawal volumes and verification through reporting to the DEP

[John Nixon]

Tees, fairways, bunkers and greens will be respectively woven into the existing natural fabric of forests, pastures and wetlands.

That doesn't even make sense. Did they mean "respectfully"?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I know it's sometimes hard to brook opposing points of view, but here's  one from Trout Unlimited, and it's written in plain english, no babbling.

http://www.tufv.org/TroutUnlimitedYaleFarmPreliminaryComments.pdf

[Steve Curry]

Jim, Pat, et al,

That is assuming there will be enough warm water that reaches the trout streams to disrupt the system.  I can understand the desire for careful examination of the impact but there is a glut of overzealous energy due to the disagreement.  I attended some of the town meetings and listened to some "professionals" who obviously were not educated to speak to the issues.  One such person was repeatedly touting around absolutely absurd numbers of gallons of water withdrawal with the obvious intent of terrifying all those with wells in the area.  It was appalling.  Managed with sound practices in mind the course will have minimal environmental impact.  Some of the farms and mines in the same area on the other hand?


Steve

[Craig Sweet]

Steve...the development is doing two things...one, they are taking water from the stream, and two, they are returning water to the stream...either/both of which can be bad for the fish...

I have never seen this site....so 150,000 gals. removed each evening might be a lot, or a drop in the bucket...

Here in Montana we have water rights...if you have the right to the water, you can use it...otherwise....you need to figure something out....however, that does not mean you can return the water to the source in a degradated quality....

Personally, I think many opponents of development have a wild hair up their butts regarding change....they hate it...so they dig in and fight and come up with one excuse after another to prolong the development...reasonable people can generally agree on reasonable conditions...from the sound of the conditions placed on this development the impacts on golf are minimal, and the buffers around some sensitive areas (a handful of acres out of 800??) are minor.

[Steve Curry]

Hi Craig,

What stream?

Thanks,
Steve

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve, et. al.,

What Craig fails to realize is that regulations such as those proposed or enacted, will forever affect GCA in that water features will be difficult to incorporate into the design of a hole, to the degree that they affect play along the lines of the 11th at Merion, 12th, 13th, 15th and 16th at ANGC, 2nd, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th at Seminole, 6th and 15th at WFW, 3rd, 12th, 13th and 14th at Plainfield, and many, many other wonderful holes at great courses.

To posture, as he does, that these regulations are prudent, is likewise, absurd.

Craig has a history of taking the extremist, rather than the practical view on these issues.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Steve,
The mining operation in that area existed for, what, ever? The family(friends) who runs it came over on the Mayflower(no kidding). Canaan didn't even have zoning as we're familiar with it until a short time ago.

I think people, especially those in our rural areas, look at farming operations in a much more favorable light because the product, food, has a much broader appeal. Most folks would rather eat first, golf later.  

Public hearings are just that, public, and you're always going to have someone with little experience, or just enough to be dangerous, speak at these meetings. We once had a 500' subdivision road held up because the town's engineer said we were not providing specs for 'traffic bound gravel', which were necessary if we wanted the town to take over maintenance. Our engineer, a great old guy and friend,  had to remind his counterpart that traffic bound gravel was merely gravel that could be bound by traffic, i.e. processed gravel.

In the end run, Roland Betts will have his golf course and everyone involved will retire to their respective corners, a little poorer and  worse for the wear.    

[Craig Sweet]

Steve...I believe the water being diverted is groundwater that "recharges" Hollow Brook...thus, they may as well be pumping from the stream....the concern being during time of drought, the recharge of Hollow Brook with colder groundwater would not be as great....

Pat...the ONLY extreme view here is your chicken little view that the sky is falling.  Every industry in America has had to meet clean water standards and make accommodations for wetlands and streams...why do you feel the golf course development industry should be any different?  Are you some sort of elite?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve...I believe the water being diverted is groundwater that "recharges" Hollow Brook...thus, they may as well be pumping from the stream....the concern being during time of drought, the recharge of Hollow Brook with colder groundwater would not be as great....

Pat...the ONLY extreme view here is your chicken little view that the sky is falling. 

Perhaps you hadn't noticed, or perhaps no one's informed you about the state of the economy.  Margaret Thatcher admonished us that if we didn't stop burdening our businesses, we wouldn't have any businesses to burden.  One only has to look at the flight of business to other countries to see the validity of her position.

Every industry in America has had to meet clean water standards and make accommodations for wetlands and streams...

When the accomodations are unreasonable and/or extreme, it unduely burdens the enterprise.  That's one of the reasons why so many industries have abandoned America for more prudent and friendly environments. 

Or, hadn't you noticed ?

Why do you feel the golf course development industry should be any different?

It's not just the golf course development industry that's been subjected to unreasonable and/or extreme regulations, it's virtually every industry.

Therefore, any industry that can be exempted from unreasonable and/or extreme regulations is a plus for everyone.

Let's carry your extremist views a little further.   What's to prevent the next wave of regulation from mandating that existing golf courses have to conform to current regulations ?   What then ?

While you're at it, could you explain to us the specifica damage to the environment that's been done by the golf course and its interaction with the waterways at Plainfield, Seminole, ANGC, WFW and Baltusrol over the last 90 years ? 

Are you some sort of elite?

If being elite means you think for yourself and don't blindly and blanketly follow extremist positions, then yes, I'm some sort of elite.

[Craig Sweet]

That's right Pat...lets have a race to the bottom with China....lets see just how far we can go in deregulating and "unburdening" industry of all those troublesome environmental regs... like you, I enjoy drinking water laced with lead and arsenic...like you, I enjoy a lung full of steel mill pollution...yep, and I love my fish dinner filled with mercury...I love it, because no matter what, I can play golf on a course with water hazards....

Margaret Thatcher was a moron...deregulation led to higher energy cost in GB...just as it has here. 

[Craig Sweet]

Pat..why don't you respond to the actual case at hand...the Yale Farm...what problems do you have with the proposed "restrictions" in the permit? Please be specific and give me some science behind your response.