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Ian Andrew

Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2009, 05:47:10 PM »
Length alone is not enough, since they’re too often just connector holes routed over flat uninteresting land. To work, they must be routed over an interesting piece of ground. I think that to be special, that shot must also be a test of nerve, not just of distance.

I like them because they offer an opportunity to apply a little pressure when combined with something to overcome. When a hole requires an exceptional shot, it will weigh on the psyche of the player. In the right context of 18 holes (variety of length and difficulty), it can present a great opportunity to suddenly test whether a player can rise to the occasion. It’s a chance for someone to hit one great shot and have a memory of a lifetime or at least a great story to tell.

Golf architecture excels in the par and a half holes, and the long par three is often the most memorable of all. Everyone remembers what they did on the 16th at Cypress and the 5th at Pine Valley.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2009, 06:25:30 PM »
I like the long par 3 which tops out at say 250 (if downhillish), but more likely 235 is a better yardage.  Anything more than 250 is pushing it so I say call it a par 4.  I guarantee you that the same hole with the longer par will garner better reviews.  What moderately talented mid capper doesn't want the opportunity to putt for eagle?  Plus, I have always really liked the idea of a long par 3 to help balance out a few short par 4s.  In general, we don't have enough holes in the 225-300 yard range - regardless of the par assignment.

Ciao

Sean - some GCAers (including me) will be playing what would seem to be the dream course for this concept, on Saturday. 

These are real hole lengths, from the white tees:

1 - 299
2 - 245
6 - 267
9 - 294
10 - 256
11 - 260
14 - 251
15 - 277
16 - 229
17 - 230

Too much of a good thing?

BTW - name the course.  Shouldn't be too tough for those familiar with where I live....

TH

Huckabilly

That is quite a Painswickian card and I whole heartily approve.  I assume its the place at which you are the current club champion?

Speaking of Painswick, I would suggest that their card may have a better balance in regards to the 225-300 range holes.  There are even two par 5s and two par 3s not too much over 100 yards. 

3. 285
4. 295
11. 246
12 250
16. 299

I honestly thought there were a few more in the 225-300 range. 

I especially like that #11 is a par 4 and #12 is a par 3.  Just to give you an idea of how quirky this card is: 4831 total yards with a par of 67, but par could easily be 61.  Man, I don't often plead for better conditions, but in the case of Painswick, if they just made the course reasonably well conditioned (especially in winter), this place would be a world beater and I would without a shadow of a doubt join. 

Ciao

You have come a long way in appreciating the karma of Painswick, grasshopper.

Bill my man, I was into funk before you ever heard of James Brown!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »

You have come a long way in appreciating the karma of Painswick, grasshopper.

Bill my man, I was into funk before you ever heard of James Brown!

Ciao
[/quote]

I do seem to recall some less than laudatory comments about Painswick in the past, but I will overlook those. 

And I went to a James Brown concert in Oakland, CA in 1958.  Take that!  ;D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2009, 06:39:56 PM »

You have come a long way in appreciating the karma of Painswick, grasshopper.

Bill my man, I was into funk before you ever heard of James Brown!

Ciao

I do seem to recall some less than laudatory comments about Painswick in the past, but I will overlook those. 

And I went to a James Brown concert in Oakland, CA in 1958.  Take that!  ;D
[/quote]

Bill

Yes, you may have gone to see The Man in 1958, but you were stumbling around with the other pastie faces!

Just to set the record straight - I have always liked Painswick.  I just never gave it the free tourista pass on the conditions you GCA lot did during your your get together.  A course only playable 8-9 months of the year in a round the year golf climate can't be good.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2009, 11:13:58 PM »
One of Thompson's Par 3's at Highland Links plays to 240 yds over water.
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2009, 06:03:59 AM »
Jeff,

I agree. If ST and Raynor and others were designing 240 par-3s (driver), then yes, the back tee on a modern-day hole intended to play similarly will probably have to be at least 270.

Speaking of variety, Thompson consistently did an incredible job with his par-3 holes. So many of his courses feature 140, 175, 190, 205, 240. (Many courses, too, featuring five one-shot holes.)

Jeff, are you thinking of Niagara Parks-Whirlpool across the road from the Niagara Gorge?  I might have fallen in love with the game when I blasted a three-wood into the morning mist some 25-30 years ago from the back tee on the 3rd, not knowing where it would alight.  My playing partners shook their heads at the temerity of a 15-year old who could bring it to a halt some  eight inches from the hole, my closest yet to the unachievable ace.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2009, 08:59:39 AM »

I'm also aware since I know quite a few of them that many very good players feel there is something sort of odd about being required to use a driver on a par 3 tee. It makes many of them feel vaguely uncomfortable! For some reason they seem to feel that club (a driver) should be reserved for par 4 and par 5 holes.

Mr. Paul:  I believe this is precisely why this type of hole "worked" so well then as now.  I, too, feel that way when faced with a one shotter where I have to consider pulling driver or laying up with a full blown 3 wood.

The 8th hole at Northland Country Club in Duluth, MN (Ross) at 230 yards is such an example when played into the wind.  I'm always uncomfortable under those circumstances.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2009, 12:36:59 PM »
Haven't read the thread (sorry; busy), but at the risk of repeating something:

I *love* the idea of a par-3 that sometimes or always requires a driver (I'm sure I must be
repeating someone there), and this is one of the reasons:

It forces the player to confront this question:

How far do I drive the ball -- really?

Is that a killed driver, a standard driver, or a knocked-down driver?

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2009, 02:35:38 PM »
Length alone is not enough, since they’re too often just connector holes routed over flat uninteresting land. To work, they must be routed over an interesting piece of ground. I think that to be special, that shot must also be a test of nerve, not just of distance.


Ian:

Really? I think you can create a terrific long par 3 over fairly dull land. Sure, you might want to have the land within 30-40 yards of the green hold some interesting contours or whatnot, but the 200 other yards between tee and green strikes me as not all that consequential, or at least important, in creating a great long par 3.

Here are some examples:

The par 3 17th at Milwaukee Country Club (Alison and perhaps Colt); this is a stern, uphill par 3, played at 224 yds for the recent USGA Mid-Am. The land is not abruptly uhill, but rather a gradual rise that ends with a large green -- somewhat wider than it is deep -- with a very deep bunker wrapped around its right side. The green doesn't have significant internal contours, but is tilted noticeably from left to right, toward the cavernous bunker. (Alison's routing of MCC is very good, and the last two holes -- 17 and 18 -- are routed in such a way that the golfer goes from one of the lower points on the course to its highest point over these two holes.) The land here plays an integral part in the hole, because it demands for most golfers at least another full club, perhaps two if wind is a factor. But the land itself is not that interesting; what is interesting and makes the hole very good is the length of the hole (demanding a long iron or fairway wood) is joined by a tough green and a fairly penal bunker.



Here is Lawsonia's 10th, a terrific long par 3 (239 yds) set on perhaps even less interesting land. What makes this hole terrific is Langford's use of a bunker/mound short right of the green to create visual deception (there is quite a bit of room between the far side of the bunker, and the green), some penal bunkering left of the green, and an exceptional green (maybe the best on the course, which is saying a lot) that is huge, tilted from back to front, and full of some interesting contours.







Finally, the 5th at Langford&Moreau's unheralded Spring Valley, near the Wisconsin-Illinois border, a slightly downhill par 3 of 210 yds that often plays longer as it often goes directly into the prevailing winds from the west. The golfer's obvious thought on the tee is the carry over water, and avoiding anything yanked left. But the green sits up from the land surrounding it, and thus Langford once again creates some nice visual deception, as the golfer on the tee may think the shot is all downhill, when in reality the land before the green can shrug off or impede a running shot into the green. The green here is quite good, very large and full of subtle contours. In short, the carry over the water is what the golfer may remember about this hole, but it's arguably not the most significant factor in how it's played.

Behind the green looking back at the tee.








« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 02:50:50 PM by Phil McDade »

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2009, 06:08:09 AM »
 At Banff, Thompson created two long masterpieces on the back nine. First the 220 yd 10th hole which is often played into the wind as well as having a long carry over water and then the 230 yd 13th.  Check out the photos:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/banffsprings1.html
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 06:10:21 AM by Don Hyslop »
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2009, 01:35:25 AM »
Cal club has 2 long ones on the card, one requiring 3 wood for our group's longest hitter (the 12th).

One of the best grouping of par 3s I've played on a course in a long, long time.

Damon Groves

Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2009, 02:18:48 AM »
I enjoy a course with varying lengths of their Par 3's which includes a long one. My home course Santa Anita #12 is a slight downhill 208 par 3 but in the afternoon plays into the wind. It is a great Redan hole with 8 foot deep bunkers in front and with the wind plays at 220. I also like the 235 12th at Bandon Trails, 228 11th at Los Angeles Country Club, 212 15th at Ballyneal and 227 11th at Ojai. All yardages from the next to back tee other than Ojai and Santa Anita.

I think the issue comes down to the concept of par.

"That simple number, 4, is part of what fools many players. Par 4 theoretically means a tee shot, an approach, and two putts; therefore, 'reaching in regulation' requires being on the green with your second shot. That's what Par 4 signifies to the golfer who isn't thinking."
- Robert Brown in The Way of Golf.

While the quote is for a Par 4 the point is clear. Nothing ever wrong with a lay up on a long Par 3 and usually there is room for that on well designed courses for exactly that type of play.

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2009, 12:00:56 PM »
Jeff,

I played The Quarry a few years ago and I'm still in awe (really love #2 and #9).  I need to play it several more times just to appreciate all the nuances.  This par 3 is a terrific hole.  If you can get it there, great.  If you're short and a little left or right you still have a chance at par.  Long par 3s that have some forgiveness are a blast to play.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2009, 09:26:36 AM »


I think the issue comes down to the concept of par.

"That simple number, 4, is part of what fools many players. Par 4 theoretically means a tee shot, an approach, and two putts; therefore, 'reaching in regulation' requires being on the green with your second shot. That's what Par 4 signifies to the golfer who isn't thinking."
- Robert Brown in The Way of Golf.

While the quote is for a Par 4 the point is clear. Nothing ever wrong with a lay up on a long Par 3 and usually there is room for that on well designed courses for exactly that type of play.

Damon -

Good post. You have nailed it. Long par 3's are interesting because of the par figure we attach to them. They are classic half par holes. Think the Road Hole or the 13th at ANGC.

As a thought experiment, would your favorite 250 yard hole become more or less interesting if it were a par 4 on the card?

Bob

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2009, 03:53:08 PM »
Jeff,

I played The Quarry a few years ago and I'm still in awe (really love #2 and #9).  I need to play it several more times just to appreciate all the nuances.  This par 3 is a terrific hole.  If you can get it there, great.  If you're short and a little left or right you still have a chance at par.  Long par 3s that have some forgiveness are a blast to play.

Glad you enjoy the course.  I really do like the 4th. I usually play the mid tees, but still climb up there just to blast a driver and see if I can make it. I usually find the front fringe, because my distance isn't what it used to be......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Damon Groves

Re: The long, long par 3...
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2009, 12:15:30 AM »


I think the issue comes down to the concept of par.

"That simple number, 4, is part of what fools many players. Par 4 theoretically means a tee shot, an approach, and two putts; therefore, 'reaching in regulation' requires being on the green with your second shot. That's what Par 4 signifies to the golfer who isn't thinking."
- Robert Brown in The Way of Golf.

While the quote is for a Par 4 the point is clear. Nothing ever wrong with a lay up on a long Par 3 and usually there is room for that on well designed courses for exactly that type of play.

Damon -

Good post. You have nailed it. Long par 3's are interesting because of the par figure we attach to them. They are classic half par holes. Think the Road Hole or the 13th at ANGC.

As a thought experiment, would your favorite 250 yard hole become more or less interesting if it were a par 4 on the card?

Bob

Bob -

If a 250 yard hole was intended to be designed as a par 3 I would think it would be designed differently than if it was designed to be a par 4 so a little hard to picture some of those holes as par 4's. However, as I think about there is an executive course I play that has a little of the feel of Tin Cup's driving range but is good for a 1 1/2 hr practice session. It finishes with a 250 par 4 (on the card) that I play as a par 3 and is a love playing as I try to hit a draw into it with my 3 wood and run it on. If I was to imagine that hole as on the card a par 3 but played it as a par 4 I would not change the way I play it and it would be  just as fun. 

So the fun remains as they remain half par holes. It is just with it as a par 4 on the card I would have in my mind easy birdie putting the pressure on just like on a short par 5.

Damon.