[Mark_Rowlinson]

In recent years we have had significant changes to holes at Royal Liverpool, a new 17th green at Royal Birkdale, and tees on the Himalayas and Eden Course for an Open at TOC. Does anybody know what's afoot for upcoming Opens?

[James Boon]

I seem to recall an article in Golf World discussing the 16th and 17th at Turnberry. The 16th fairway has been taken out to the left to make it more of a left to right dog leg and this has created ground for new tees so the par 5 17th can be lengthened. I think there may also be a new back tee on 10 to create a similar over the cliffs type tee shot to the previous hole?

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

I seem to recall an article in Golf World discussing the 16th and 17th at Turnberry. The 16th fairway has been taken out to the left to make it more of a left to right dog leg and this has created ground for new tees so the par 5 17th can be lengthened. I think there may also be a new back tee on 10 to create a similar over the cliffs type tee shot to the previous hole?

Cheers,

James

These are both correct... 17th is lengthened by 60 yards and the 16th has become a better hole with the burn now affecting play more with it snaking round the right of the green (as opposed to really just fronting it)... new rough mounding has been put in to define / tie in the old 16th fairway to the surrounds...

There have been quite a few other changes I believe, mainly fairly minor new tees / visibility issues etc.... done by MacKenzie & Ebert

Don't know about expected changes for Opens following Turnberry...

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:

They can be summarized as follows:

Longer
Narrower
More bunkers

Genius! 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Who's pushing for these changes?

I can't imagine it's the individual clubs, and suspect it's the R&A.

[Bill_McBride]

Who's pushing for these changes?

I can't imagine it's the individual clubs, and suspect it's the R&A.

This is really a shame, if the R&A is following the USGA's lead.  One of the charming things about the Open Championship has been that it's been played on the same course visitors and members play, just from the back tees.  Scores versus par haven't seemed to be an issue, most likely because the courses are links courses, and wind and weather have been more important than course set up in determining the outcome.

Now that the USGA has seen the light at least a little bit with some recent easing, here comes the R&A to make their courses less playable. 

[Sean_A]

I am not too bothered about the lengthening of the course or the added bunkers, but I really like the other changes to 16.  Considering the great location of the green, the hole certainly felt a blah before.  I don't think that will be the case anymore. 

Remember folks, these Open courses and the qualifying courses have been changing continuously over the past 100 years.  While I dislike added bunkers at places like Hoylake (and I am told Turnberry added a load) and the proverbial added distance, a lot of the work to these courses is very good.

Ciao 

[Ian Andrew]

I saw the changes at Turnberry last spring.

It used to be a fun hole where you felt compelled to take chances - and there was an equal chance you would make 3 you would make 6.

When we played this spring - it's changed into a hole where you don't even consider the green unless you absolutely smash a driver and even then I'm not sure if it makes any sense to go for the green that far back.

It removed the charm and all the options on how to go after the hole.

[Sean_A]

I saw the changes at Turnberry last spring.

It used to be a fun hole where you felt compelled to take chances - and there was an equal chance you would make 3 you would make 6.

When we played this spring - it's changed into a hole where you don't even consider the green unless you absolutely smash a driver and even then I'm not sure if it makes any sense to go for the green that far back.

It removed the charm and all the options on how to go after the hole.

Ian

Play the forward tees.  The wee dogleg is imo a vast improvement on the hole. 

I seem to recall the championship tee for 18 was to be moved to the left of #17, making a pronounced legger left.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Turnberry

I noticed in one of the past issues of Golf Architecture magazine that Turnberry have big plans on moving the 11th green to the edge of the cliffs according to George Brown - the estate manager.

Lytham

There are to be new 7th and 11th greens built to increase length of the course - by Mackenzie and Ebert.

[Sean_A]

Ok, I checked the Open site and it would appear there are more than a load of bunkers slapped around the landing zones. 



"The opening three holes work back and forth parallel to each other, ensuring that at least one of the holes plays into whichever wind is blowing. Following that, the course turns to run along the shoreline from south to north, meaning that the prevailing south-westerlies will often help the player. From the 12th, however, the course turns back inland, constantly changing in both character and direction as the Ailsa makes its way back to the clubhouse.

Though once a relatively short Open venue, the Ailsa has now been extended to over 7,200 yards, though the final yardage for the 2009 Championship is yet to be confirmed. As at Birkdale last year, 20 new bunkers have been added primarily to tighten up the course, with many driving areas now invaded by sand at the 280-yard mark.

The biggest changes come in the final three holes, however: the 16th, once a straightforward and relatively short par-4, has been extended and its fairway moved to create a more challenging approach shot to a green protected by a deep burn. At the 2008 Amateur Championship, with the wind blowing into competitors’ faces, many players needed to woods to reach a green that used to be a drive and a wedge. The 17th, the course’s only par-5 and often seen as an excellent eagle opportunity, has been extended to around 560 yards. And finally the 18th has been made significantly tougher, with the tee having been moved from the right of the 17th green to the left, making the new hole a tough right-to-left dogleg that is likely to encourage plenty of final hole drama."


Ben - Is this to say they want to push the 11th green further right?

Ciao

[Mark_F]

I am surprised no one has put the tee for 11 out on Ailsa Craig so we can have a decent, long water carry par three, which all of the Open courses are sorely lacking.

All of this fiddling can only be a good thing.  Troon will follow the Old Course's lead in extending their course beyond its boundaries, thus bringing Prestwick rightfully back into the Open rota, ditto Sandwich and Princes.  Muirfield will also surely see the sense in including the pit hole at North Berwick by re-aligning one of their fairways to make this happen.

[Mark Smolens]

Mr. Ferguson, it's that kind of genius that led to the creation of the Reverse Jans

[Tony_Muldoon]

Turnberry

I noticed in one of the past issues of Golf Architecture magazine that Turnberry have big plans on moving the 11th green to the edge of the cliffs according to George Brown - the estate manager.

Lytham

There are to be new 7th and 11th greens built to increase length of the course - by Mackenzie and Ebert.

And that's not all folks.  The course is indeed currently in the hands of the R&A. They are paying for the changes and the hotel and the club have no say in the set up. 

The guy who now runs the company who bought the hotel, is from down under and a self professed friend of Greg Norman. Norman went straight from his stellar week at Birkdale to Turnberry and was letting it be known he wasn't a fan of the changes and that there would be more following the Open.

[jeffwarne]

The amazing thing, despite the changes at every major venue............



someone wins every year

[Ben Stephens]

Sean,

I think its was George Brown that mentioned the 11th green is to move left on edge of cliffs. From this thread it looks like Greg Norman could have his hands on redesigning Turnberry after the Open.

There are 2 par 5's - the 7th ('roon the ben' - translated as round the mountain) and the 17th. I have played this course - there are quite a lot of weak holes and some strong ones - I felt it was not consistent enough flowing through the 18 holes. I would have got rid of the 1st 2 holes - start on 3rd make it a stronger hole and build 2 new spectacular holes taking some oceanfront land from the Kintyre course.

16th now looks a much improved hole.

I have plans to play Sandwich in March. There have been a few changes on 15 and 18. Hope fully I will take some pics and post it on GCA


Cheers

[Matthew Hunt]

Trump Caledonia removes those funny-colored bushs...Oh its hair...

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I think its was George Brown that mentioned the 11th green is to move left on edge of cliffs. From this thread it looks like Greg Norman could have his hands on redesigning Turnberry after the Open.

There are 2 par 5's - the 7th ('roon the ben' - translated as round the mountain) and the 17th. I have played this course - there are quite a lot of weak holes and some strong ones - I felt it was not consistent enough flowing through the 18 holes. I would have got rid of the 1st 2 holes - start on 3rd make it a stronger hole and build 2 new spectacular holes taking some oceanfront land from the Kintyre course.

16th now looks a much improved hole.

I have plans to play Sandwich in March. There have been a few changes on 15 and 18. Hope fully I will take some pics and post it on GCA


Cheers

Ben

I too often wondered about the use of the dramatic area by the sea on the Kintyre.  Though, to be honest, if you take that section away from the Kintyre there ain't much left worthwhile - certainly not enough to tempt anybody away from the championship course.  Personally, I think they are trying to make silk from a sow's ear at Turnberry.  Perhaps I am a bit harsh, but I think it would be best to just start all over again and re-route a new Turnberry.  The overall flow of the design should be better given that land - in other words, Turnberry is a bit of a lost opportunity.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

From the tone of many of these posts I get the impression that few current Open Championship courses get your whole-hearted approval, with or without alterations. Nobody would utter a word of criticism of R Dornoch, R Cinque Ports, Swinley Forest or The Addington, yet are these courses SO superior? What would have to be done to them to fit them for Open Championship (or in the cases of Swinley or The Addington some appropriate inland championship) duty - assuming (a big assumption) that they wished to hold such a championship? And, then, would we have ruined them?

In other words, what qualities are necessary in a golf course to find the Champion Golfer?

[Sean_A]

From the tone of many of these posts I get the impression that few current Open Championship courses get your whole-hearted approval, with or without alterations. Nobody would utter a word of criticism of R Dornoch, R Cinque Ports, Swinley Forest or The Addington, yet are these courses SO superior? What would have to be done to them to fit them for Open Championship (or in the cases of Swinley or The Addington some appropriate inland championship) duty - assuming (a big assumption) that they wished to hold such a championship? And, then, would we have ruined them?

In other words, what qualities are necessary in a golf course to find the Champion Golfer?

Mark

That is certainly the case with me - though I wouldn't say the non-championship courses are in any way superior except in the forgiveness and therefore fun they offer.  Most Open courses have too many bunkers in the landing and rescue zones resulting in minimized variety.  If this isn't the case, then the rough is grown in and up.  Sometimes, all of these championship factors are in play.  In a word, they are too difficult if any sort of rough weather hits.  The elasticity of their design to take into account bad weather has been systematically designed out over the years.  I can recall going to Troon many moons agao and being bored to tears on the back 9 because in a not so strong wind most holes were a predictable driver-3 wood.  Not clever.     

I dread to see the day where places like Addington try to rev up for a championship.   These are the places which offer some sanity of design - something we can look to for guidance. 

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

The championship tee on 18 has always been left of 17 green, correct? I only played it twice, but I have a hard time picturing where that tee is exactly...

Man I really like Turnberry, especially from 3 on. Surprised it gets so little love here.

Edit. Checked on Google satellite and see where it is. Looks like a better hole from over there.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean, I don't think so.  I think they kept moving back 18 tee until they ran out of room and then they moved it over to the left of 17 green.  I greatly enjoyed Turnberry, too -- Mark F get real on a new 11 tee.  They're going to employ a floating, island tee that will be in use 1 week every 5 years!

Mark

[Ian Andrew]

16th now looks a much improved hole.

I have to ask - have you played it?

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark I can only reply for Deal but for the course to challenge the players on a major event many of the holes require additional work in the landing zones. Several of the holes have fearsome bunkers on the doglegs I'm thinking #9, #11, #13 & #15. To the modern player these are barely line markers and hold zero impact on the hole - unless there is a 35+mph wind - leaving the landing zones are wide open.

Could Deal ever hold an Open again, I doubt it but the course would make a wonderful venue for the Walker Cup, British Seniors or British Ladies Opens.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The championship tee on 18 has always been left of 17 green, correct? I only played it twice, but I have a hard time picturing where that tee is exactly...

Man I really like Turnberry, especially from 3 on. Surprised it gets so little love here.

Edit. Checked on Google satellite and see where it is. Looks like a better hole from over there.

The 3rd must be 500 yards from the new tee, looks huge and 17 must be touching 600. I think Turnberry is pretty awesome too from 3 on.
The 18th tee being left of 17 was a 'first' for the 77 Open, previously the tee was very near the current 6th tee, so a straight hole.

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