DO HIGH HANDICAPERS HAVE MORE FUN?

[PCCraig]

Anthony-

In the 1000+ rounds I watched as a caddy growing up, I saw a big range in ability. However I will say this, if my handicap was above a 25...I wouldn't play the game. It looks miserable when people are topping it off the tee, missing greens, slicing it out of bounds. Why would anyone want to do that to themselves?

To top it all off, "hackers" do not have more fun, when they play bad they can be just as miserable as anyone on or off the course.

I really hope that this comment was in jest.

At its fundamental core, golf is still a GAME.   I think that we all take golf too seriously sometimes.   

The vast majority of people on your local course are out for a few hours of fun, relaxation and enjoyment.  Sure, 5% or 10% or whatever % of golfers are there for the serious competition grind it out on the course experience, but the vast majority of course revenues are made up of golfers with maybe some beer in tow, or hackers or high handicappers or whatever label you want to lay on them who never break 100 or 90 in their lives, all out to get away from it all for a couple of hours, probably with their buddies.   Without this large demographic golfing group courses would close or be very very expensive to play.

I love golf as much as the next guy, but as someone who rarely breaks 85, and plays in the low 90's routinely, I can't profess to having any less fun than the next guy, or probably any more fun, either.  I curse to myself on a flubbed shot as much as anyone else, but your outlook on course is much like your outlook in life...if you are confident that the next shot will be your life's best, no matter how bad the last shot was, you will enjoy the game.  It is a game about optimism as much as anything else.  NOBODY plays this game perfectly all or even some of the time. 

John-

With all due respect, if someone is an avid player of darts at the local neighborhood bar and can not actually hit the dart board 5 out of 100 times, eventually the owner is going to make you pay for new drywall or tell you to take up another sport (or game) as you call it.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony-

In the 1000+ rounds I watched as a caddy growing up, I saw a big range in ability. However I will say this, if my handicap was above a 25...I wouldn't play the game. It looks miserable when people are topping it off the tee, missing greens, slicing it out of bounds. Why would anyone want to do that to themselves?

To top it all off, "hackers" do not have more fun, when they play bad they can be just as miserable as anyone on or off the course.

I really hope that this comment was in jest.

At its fundamental core, golf is still a GAME.   I think that we all take golf too seriously sometimes.   

The vast majority of people on your local course are out for a few hours of fun, relaxation and enjoyment.  Sure, 5% or 10% or whatever % of golfers are there for the serious competition grind it out on the course experience, but the vast majority of course revenues are made up of golfers with maybe some beer in tow, or hackers or high handicappers or whatever label you want to lay on them who never break 100 or 90 in their lives, all out to get away from it all for a couple of hours, probably with their buddies.   Without this large demographic golfing group courses would close or be very very expensive to play.

I love golf as much as the next guy, but as someone who rarely breaks 85, and plays in the low 90's routinely, I can't profess to having any less fun than the next guy, or probably any more fun, either.  I curse to myself on a flubbed shot as much as anyone else, but your outlook on course is much like your outlook in life...if you are confident that the next shot will be your life's best, no matter how bad the last shot was, you will enjoy the game.  It is a game about optimism as much as anything else.  NOBODY plays this game perfectly all or even some of the time. 

John-

With all due respect, if someone is an avid player of darts at the local neighborhood bar and can not actually hit the dart board 5 out of 100 times, eventually the owner is going to make you pay for new drywall or tell you to take up another sport (or game) as you call it.

  Pat,

  You mean something like this?


   

   


   Anthony

[PCCraig]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;

I grew up playing, working, studying, and breathing golf. I haven't been a 25+ handicap since I was 12. At my absolute best I was a +1 or +2 handicap and even now with a full time desk job and no practice time I can still get it around the course as a 3.  

I'm not taking the slightest bit away from any golfer that wants to go out and play until dark and wants to spend all night adding his score. All power to you.

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

[Carl Nichols]

If I think of the 10 guys at my course who appear to have the least fun playing, 9 of them are higher handicappers.  Of the 10 guys who appear to have the most fun, at least 5 are "lower" (which I'll call 6.0 and below) handicappers.  

So if I were to engage in gross overgeneralizations based solely on my course, I'd answer Anthony's question with a "No."  But I agree with other posters who say it's really just dependent on personality -- there are lots of fun, and lots of not-so-fun, guys in both groups.

[Anthony Gray]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;


Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

  Pat,

  So Pat. Are you saying once you go scratch you can never go back?

  Anthony

[JESII]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;

I grew up playing, working, studying, and breathing golf. I haven't been a 25+ handicap since I was 12. At my absolute best I was a +1 or +2 handicap and even now with a full time desk job and no practice time I can still get it around the course as a 3.  

I'm not taking the slightest bit away from any golfer that wants to go out and play until dark and wants to spend all night adding his score. All power to you.

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

Pat,

In your own words, you are considerably worse than in your pre-working years...how do you deal with that?

[PCCraig]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;

I grew up playing, working, studying, and breathing golf. I haven't been a 25+ handicap since I was 12. At my absolute best I was a +1 or +2 handicap and even now with a full time desk job and no practice time I can still get it around the course as a 3.  

I'm not taking the slightest bit away from any golfer that wants to go out and play until dark and wants to spend all night adding his score. All power to you.

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

Pat,

In your own words, you are considerably worse than in your pre-working years...how do you deal with that?

I don't have as much fun on the course as I used to. Hence my point.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

  Thanks for your views. I respect them. As one who is almost twice your age as stated before I enjoy watching you guys play first hand. But as you age your handicap will rise also.

  Will this take away your enjoyment/love for the game?

  At what handicap level will you quit playing?

  More power to you,

  Anthony

 

[PCCraig]

  At what handicap level will you quit playing?

 

The day the ugly girl starts to look good.

[John Burzynski]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;

I grew up playing, working, studying, and breathing golf. I haven't been a 25+ handicap since I was 12. At my absolute best I was a +1 or +2 handicap and even now with a full time desk job and no practice time I can still get it around the course as a 3.  

I'm not taking the slightest bit away from any golfer that wants to go out and play until dark and wants to spend all night adding his score. All power to you.

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

I guess we can all quibble that as to whether golf is a game, sport, pastime, whatever label you affix to it.  People play golf, even if they are rotten at the sport/game, simply because they enjoy it.  You don't necessarily have to excel at something, especially a sport or game, to enjoy it.    I play in a men's basketball league in the winter, and I don't ask why the guy who brings the ball up the court but only makes his shot 1 or 2 out of 10 times is still playing the game; he doesn't seem to enjoy the game/sport of basketball any less than I do.

Do you ever play poker or blackjack?  If you are like most guys, you lose more money than you win at the table over a sufficiently long period of time (and sometimes lose a lot more than you win).  Why play cards if you can't win 80% of the time?    Playing cards is still enjoyable...time with your buddies in the evening or in the clubhouse or wherever...win or lose.  

At its core, golf is for all of us a sport, game or diversion, none of us here (or very few, anyhow) make our livings or make any significant money for simply playing the game.  We play because we enjoy it, and maybe a 25 handicap enjoys the walk, the camraderie, or simply the challenge, no matter how good or bad he is at golf.

[John Burzynski]

Anthony-

In the 1000+ rounds I watched as a caddy growing up, I saw a big range in ability. However I will say this, if my handicap was above a 25...I wouldn't play the game. It looks miserable when people are topping it off the tee, missing greens, slicing it out of bounds. Why would anyone want to do that to themselves?

To top it all off, "hackers" do not have more fun, when they play bad they can be just as miserable as anyone on or off the course.

I really hope that this comment was in jest.

At its fundamental core, golf is still a GAME.   I think that we all take golf too seriously sometimes.   

The vast majority of people on your local course are out for a few hours of fun, relaxation and enjoyment.  Sure, 5% or 10% or whatever % of golfers are there for the serious competition grind it out on the course experience, but the vast majority of course revenues are made up of golfers with maybe some beer in tow, or hackers or high handicappers or whatever label you want to lay on them who never break 100 or 90 in their lives, all out to get away from it all for a couple of hours, probably with their buddies.   Without this large demographic golfing group courses would close or be very very expensive to play.

I love golf as much as the next guy, but as someone who rarely breaks 85, and plays in the low 90's routinely, I can't profess to having any less fun than the next guy, or probably any more fun, either.  I curse to myself on a flubbed shot as much as anyone else, but your outlook on course is much like your outlook in life...if you are confident that the next shot will be your life's best, no matter how bad the last shot was, you will enjoy the game.  It is a game about optimism as much as anything else.  NOBODY plays this game perfectly all or even some of the time. 

John-

With all due respect, if someone is an avid player of darts at the local neighborhood bar and can not actually hit the dart board 5 out of 100 times, eventually the owner is going to make you pay for new drywall or tell you to take up another sport (or game) as you call it.

Anthony-

In the 1000+ rounds I watched as a caddy growing up, I saw a big range in ability. However I will say this, if my handicap was above a 25...I wouldn't play the game. It looks miserable when people are topping it off the tee, missing greens, slicing it out of bounds. Why would anyone want to do that to themselves?

To top it all off, "hackers" do not have more fun, when they play bad they can be just as miserable as anyone on or off the course.

I really hope that this comment was in jest.

At its fundamental core, golf is still a GAME.   I think that we all take golf too seriously sometimes.   

The vast majority of people on your local course are out for a few hours of fun, relaxation and enjoyment.  Sure, 5% or 10% or whatever % of golfers are there for the serious competition grind it out on the course experience, but the vast majority of course revenues are made up of golfers with maybe some beer in tow, or hackers or high handicappers or whatever label you want to lay on them who never break 100 or 90 in their lives, all out to get away from it all for a couple of hours, probably with their buddies.   Without this large demographic golfing group courses would close or be very very expensive to play.

I love golf as much as the next guy, but as someone who rarely breaks 85, and plays in the low 90's routinely, I can't profess to having any less fun than the next guy, or probably any more fun, either.  I curse to myself on a flubbed shot as much as anyone else, but your outlook on course is much like your outlook in life...if you are confident that the next shot will be your life's best, no matter how bad the last shot was, you will enjoy the game.  It is a game about optimism as much as anything else.  NOBODY plays this game perfectly all or even some of the time. 

John-

With all due respect, if someone is an avid player of darts at the local neighborhood bar and can not actually hit the dart board 5 out of 100 times, eventually the owner is going to make you pay for new drywall or tell you to take up another sport (or game) as you call it.

I don't think that any course superintendent is gonna make me pay for missing the green or fairway.  I am not damaging the course with my bad play.

[Anthony Gray]

  At what handicap level will you quit playing?

 

The day the ugly girl starts to look good.

  Good one!!!!! In that case I hope we both die on the golf course.


 Anthony

[JESII]

Pat,

How about the 25 handicappers that have are still hoping and trying to improve?

Also, the dart analogy fails because there is just nothing like golf...

[Mark Pearce]

I'm a 12 handicap.  Last year on two occasions playing in medals I failed to break 100.  On another, playing my father in law at matchplay I shot (an approximate, but a very good approximate - he didn't give me anything I couldn't kick in) 79 at Muirfield.  I know which round I enjoyed most.  I'd love to be scratch and am sure I'd still enjoy the game, however, having started to play in my 30s I don't suppose I'll ever get there.  The prospect of being a high handicapper (say worse than 18) isn't at all attractive.

[Jim Briggs]

  At what handicap level will you quit playing?

 

The day the ugly girl starts to look good.

Pat - Boy am I thankful that yours isn't the prevailing view.  I'm an 19 handicap right now.  Never really had the opportunity to eat, sleep and breath golf at a young age like you, so in your words, I guess I have never been with the hot chick.  Though there hasn't been a lot of time for me to be able to do so, I continue to work on my game when I can and the 19 is bettter than last year, which was better than the year before...

I have a wife who picked up the game a few years ago and is down to a 21, and an 11 year old involved in junior golf at our course and who qualified for the junior tour in bergen county NJ where we live.

If you listen to some on this thread, you would think at our handicaps we should be packing it in and taking up another sport.  We have a ton of fun as a family playing, and yes we can go out with our own mens and womens groups and get the competitive juices flowing...we've both progressed through a flight or two and have some hardware to show for it.

I guess for someone like you who has seen a + handicap, I can see how going backwards will be tough, but there are plenty of us that wont ever see the +, will never see the single digits, but will get plenty of enjoyment out of this game (I guess I'll also be really, really careful to never utter the words that the ugly chick is looking good to me when playing with my wife, lest i get a 5 iron across the skull...)

Jim

[Anthony Gray]

  Pat,

  Nothing wrong with the hot chick. But when you become a 5 she leaves you for the scratch guy.

  Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

I suppose my summary of the subject revolves around this;


Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

  Pat,

  So Pat. Are you saying once you go scratch you can never go back?

  Anthony

One thing that I have observed is that all the malevolent cheaters (as opposed to the ignorant ones) I have known and played against were players who once played off scratch (or better) and were now increasingly struggling to post good scores or results.  they wanted to go back to scratch, but couldn't, and so the ball marker on the green which magically moved forward and the ball in the gorse that was "found" in the rough became more prevalent than the old routine of fairways and greens......

[George Pazin]

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

Once again, I must point out that if you are generally shooting around 100, you are also usually not torturing yourself. You might be torturing guys like you, but not yourself. There are gobs and gobs of people who just don't play frequently or practice enough to really improve, yet can still have a great deal of fun putting together a round of 105. Bogey golf is around 90 - throw in a few big number holes like jeffwarne cites and you have your 105. Ignore the big numbers, understanding that's what happens when you don't have the time to devote to the game, and you can easily enjoy your 105. Heck, I know plenty of good, avid golfers who would shoot 105 if counting every stroke at a certain Burgh classic.

I feel sorry for you after reading your hot chick analogy and your dart analogy.

George,
Sorry if I offended (not my intention and in fact I poked a bit of fun at Pat in protest)-I happen to agree with you and if you follow the thread back you'll see we're on the same page.
and I am thankful for the opportunities I was given (and made) as a kid and young man.....as I'm sure you're thankful for whatever you had the chance to hone your skill at.

I do not agree with pat's other statements or I'd be out of a job-pretty sure I never stated or inferred that.

As you point out pros shoot 90's occasionally (esp. club pros)
I never got the training or time as a kid to improve my bowling, but I'm not too upset about it-and I always have fun.

If someone is a 25, and playing a tough course, that means their BEST 10 scores are averaging about 97-101 (after equitable stroke control).
Someone who lays 8 and has skulled three in a row, or hit two out of bounds and picks up, is unlikely to make an 8 on a hole and that number could go as high as 13-15.
Throw in some wind. tall grass, OB, unfamiliarity, and God forbid, a stroke play tournament with no gimmes, and someone having a round where they hit the ball 25-30% more than usual would not be unexpected.
The same as a scratch shooting 90.

I don't believe a beginner could shoot 130 either on most golf courses .

Of course a 25 who was short and steady would have less variance.

It's not just 25's it's everybody.

In our Club Championship it takes 87 or so to qualify for the Championship flight (not the back tees and middle pins) and there are usually several scores over 100 and many over 90
Every year a 25 or so says to me he should've tried out for the Championship Flight as he shot an 89 just last Sunday.

I had a 21  INSIST that we play a stroke player qualifier for the CC for all flights because he didn't want to be with the players in his flight because they couldn't play to their handicaps.
On a hard golf course, I can't even imagine getting a full field
 around in real stroke play with handicaps above 10-15.

I play most of my golf with 25's (by choice) but trust me most really don't have an actual total score at the end of the day--Nor should they as match play is the way to go.
but it does crack me up when a guy adds up his score and announces he shot 90 when didn't get to the green on 7 holes (yet lost 3 ways -getting 25 shots)

Excellent post, can't say that I disagree with much or any of it.

[Kalen Braley]

George,

Pat will be just fine, he's just a youngster.  Give him 15-20 yrs and mentally he'll be right where he needs to be. 

[George Pazin]

Pat - Boy am I thankful that yours isn't the prevailing view.  I'm an 19 handicap right now.  Never really had the opportunity to eat, sleep and breath golf at a young age like you, so in your words, I guess I have never been with the hot chick.  Though there hasn't been a lot of time for me to be able to do so, I continue to work on my game when I can and the 19 is bettter than last year, which was better than the year before...

I have a wife who picked up the game a few years ago and is down to a 21, and an 11 year old involved in junior golf at our course and who qualified for the junior tour in bergen county NJ where we live.

If you listen to some on this thread, you would think at our handicaps we should be packing it in and taking up another sport.  We have a ton of fun as a family playing, and yes we can go out with our own mens and womens groups and get the competitive juices flowing...we've both progressed through a flight or two and have some hardware to show for it.

I guess for someone like you who has seen a + handicap, I can see how going backwards will be tough, but there are plenty of us that wont ever see the +, will never see the single digits, but will get plenty of enjoyment out of this game (I guess I'll also be really, really careful to never utter the words that the ugly chick is looking good to me when playing with my wife, lest i get a 5 iron across the skull...)

Jim

Nice post. If you ever make it to the Burgh, I'd like to buy you a beer and join you and your wife for a round of golf.

[Brent Hutto]

Speaking as a long-time high handicapper I'll toss in my two cents worth...

First off, I don't see how any high handicapper (bogey golfer or worse) can have fun with a scorecard in his hand. I know that I don't have any fun at it even when I play reasonably well by my standards. And if I play poorly there's nothing in it. Just miserable keeping a scorecard and putting out for sevens, eights and worse. The one exception might be playing a single round at a notable course and keeping score just to have a number and a souvenir scorecard at the end of the day.

Second point, in my experience it's not how bad the bad holes are or whether I'm able to make birdies or even string together a bunch of pars. It's all about how many holes I'm totally out of in a round of eighteen. One advantage to having a little match going is that I might salvage a hole here or there where my opponent happens to waste a couple strokes thereby making my putt for double-bogey be for a half or lord knows even a win. Of course the converse is he might hole out for birdie while I'm still foozling around hoping to make a 15-footer for my par but that doesn't happen too often with the guy I play against!

But in a game or just playing on my own as long as I can have 14, 15, 16 holes where I'm at least chipping for par or have a makable putt for bogey (and of course a few holes better than that as well) then a couple holes of being in my pocket will not ruin the fun...unless I have a scorecard and pencil in hand which gets back to my first point, above.

Final thought. One advantage that high handicappers have to make "fun" easier is the possibility of improvement. I can't imagine that there's a good chance of a guy who's been a 1-2 handicapper for a few years honing one aspect of his game over the summer and finding himself a +1 by September. But the odds are somewhat higher if a 16-handicapper gets serious about practicing his chipping, bunker shots and lag putting twice a week for a few months and shaving three or four strokes off his index.

[PCCraig]

My main point is that as someone who has reached a certain level in his game, I can't understand WHY some people put themselves through the torture of playing golf. I have seen really nice men and women with good outlooks on live make themselves miserable playing golf (from both sides of the bag Jeff). Why?

Someone on here mentioned that becoming a 4 handicap was like getting dragged around by the hot chick at school. Well being a scratch golfer is like getting with the hot chick at school...its impossible to go back to dating the ugly girl as long as you're thinking about the hot babe you used to have.

Once again, I must point out that if you are generally shooting around 100, you are also usually not torturing yourself. You might be torturing guys like you, but not yourself. There are gobs and gobs of people who just don't play frequently or practice enough to really improve, yet can still have a great deal of fun putting together a round of 105. Bogey golf is around 90 - throw in a few big number holes like jeffwarne cites and you have your 105. Ignore the big numbers, understanding that's what happens when you don't have the time to devote to the game, and you can easily enjoy your 105. Heck, I know plenty of good, avid golfers who would shoot 105 if counting every stroke at a certain Burgh classic.

I feel sorry for you after reading your hot chick analogy and your dart analogy.


Don't feel sorry for me. 

[Kirk Gill]

I basically agree with the notion that the amount of fun you have on a golf course has less to do with your level of play than it does your level of ability to have fun on a golf course, if that makes sense. But what's interesting to me is that any agony one feels on a course, any "lack of fun" is entirely self-imposed. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of torture that some people in this game pay good money to experience on a regular basis. I'd take a simplistic tack and just say "quit!" to those who put themselves through such agonies, but I used to be one of them myself, and things changed for me. There's no rule that says if you're playing worse than you want or expect that your resulting mental state has to be one of anger and self-loathing. I will say this, though. Sometimes when I have an opportunity to play an especially difficult course, I balk because I feel like I would embarrass my host if I were to visit and play horribly.

[PCCraig]

Guys-

This thread is a perfect example of how GCA can turn nasty and pointless. I was mearly making the point that I have seen 100's of golfers play horrible golf and not have fun doing so. Less often I have seen low handicapers look like they were not having fun on the golf course.

None of my comments were made to insult your wives, question why any of you play golf, or anything absurb like that. The main question that started the thread was "Do high handicapers have more fun?" My answer was no...they do not have MORE fun. And then I stated my personal example as to why I thought that.

The whole hot chick analogy is stupid, yes, but come on guys this is supposed to be a fun discussion. (Not an insult to anyones wife). I think many times on here the participants treat golf in this mythological, this is the "meaning of life" way that is many times undeserving. I agree that golf is a social pasttime, hobby, game...and I doubt any of you guys would take this so seriously in person that in person you would dismiss my comments as being from someone "young," inexperienced, etc...

That being said I am always open to playing golf with anyone from here and if anyone is in Chicago or passing through I would be more than willing to set up a game...regardless of handicap.

[John Burzynski]

I almost have to feel that if there were more match play here in the US, high handicappers wouldn't be labeled so badly by the better players.  Sure, everyone would realize the discrepancy between the the two golf games, but match play cures some of the ills of the 25 handicappers who explode  and card an 11 on a hole and an 8 on a hole.  Not saying a 25 cap is magically going to beat a 3 cap regularly or at all in match play, just that some of the 'bad play' would be alleviated by picking up and moving on to the next hole.

We focus so much on stroke play here in the US,  and the handicap system in theory should allow both ends of the scoring spectrum to compete with each other.  if the 25 cap wins, we all know his game isn't the equivalent of the 3 cap's, but maybe that he was the better grinder that day.