DO HIGH HANDICAPERS HAVE MORE FUN?

[Anthony Gray]

  In my clubhouse the C and D players are the ones that laugh the loudest and the longest. Usually at each other!!!!!!

  At the KP I will pay to see Garland and Kalen in match-play.

  Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
You can't ignore the empirical evidence, it all depends on the individual.

What may be misleading is the tremendous amount of golfers at high handicaps vs. the very limited number at single digits or better. That's a fact, so you will nearly always run into more cheery high handicap players than cheery lows, at your club and elsewhere.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
You can't ignore the empirical evidence, it all depends on the individual.

What may be misleading is the tremendous amount of golfers at high handicaps vs. the very limited number at single digits or better. That's a fact, so you will nearly always run into more cheery high handicap players than cheery lows, at your club and elsewhere.

  Jim,

  Even so. You just do not see scratch players doing victory laps around the final green shirtless after draining the long birdie putt.

  Anthony

[JESII]

Hale Irwin?

[JESII]

I think a significant corrolary is why are the loudest people the highest handicaps?

[Garland Bayley]

What Anthony may be saying is that high handicappers a have fewer highs so they are higher and they have many lows so they are not as low. What others, e.g. Tim, may be saying is that low handicappers have more highs therefore the highs are lower and they have fewer lows so the lows are lower.

It all averages out and I think I would guess personality determines who has the best time.

[Rich Goodale]

Jim

Hale didn't take his shirt off, and he was probably plus 6 or 7 at the time so Anthony is technically right even if substantially wrong....

George

"Your numbers are a bit off. 25s don't shoot 130. You're mistaking beginners for 25s"

Wrong!

Come to Dornoch one of these days and play in the Burghfield Open.  One year I saw a team of 3, with handicaps between 8 and 18 shoot an aggregate 411.  The low handicap shot 127.  I played in an Open last summer at my home course (Aberdour, 5400 yards, par 67) with a scratch player who was trying to shoot a score to get on the Fife team.  He shot 88, after being 2 under through 7.  If he could do that, a 25 could easily shoot 130.  You'd be lucky to break 150!

S**t happens, my son.....

Rich

[Anthony Gray]

I think a significant corrolary is why are the loudest people the highest handicaps?

   Jim,

  Your statement has great depth. I have been hinting the same thing.
The guys with the "loud" personalities a are not usually the best players. No Absolutes. On tour I can think of Lee Trevino as one of the few. Some personality types do make better golfers. That is why the tour is stale at times.

  And also, Hale Irwin kept his shirt on.

  Anthony

 

[Lyne Morrison]

While working through the Royal Melbourne thread it struck me that a phrase from Peter Palotta fits comfortably with this topic...

....."The "golfer" who commits to participating fully in his round of golf will out of necessity (and happily) take and experience the golf course as it comes to him: one vista, one shot, one trial or moment of grace at a time. It is the "critic" who, after the fact -- or even before the fact -- sits in his club chair and weighs and calculates and speculates on the value or nature of that experience."....

I feel this sums things up very well - it is not handicap specific, we are all "golfers" and "critics" -- the difference lies in the fact that the single figure golfer has a greater understanding of why he/she has not capitalised on certain situations - hence their inherent frustration.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Rick Sides]

I really think the game of golf is that much fun to a high handicaper.  If golf was five bucks a round, then maybe it would be alright to hack the ball, chunck it, and slice the ball o.b. I am finally gettting a bit better at this game (about an 11 handicap) but when I first started as a 25 handicap the game was very frustrating.  If I am spending anywhere from 50 to 200 bucks a round on average, stinking up the joint is not fun.

[George Pazin]

George

"Your numbers are a bit off. 25s don't shoot 130. You're mistaking beginners for 25s"

Wrong!

Come to Dornoch one of these days and play in the Burghfield Open.  One year I saw a team of 3, with handicaps between 8 and 18 shoot an aggregate 411.  The low handicap shot 127.  I played in an Open last summer at my home course (Aberdour, 5400 yards, par 67) with a scratch player who was trying to shoot a score to get on the Fife team.  He shot 88, after being 2 under through 7.  If he could do that, a 25 could easily shoot 130.  You'd be lucky to break 150!

S**t happens, my son.....

Rich

There's golf, and there's tournament golf. They are not at all the same.

Gee, I should copyright that.

My general point holds, imho. Pat is doing the same thing Matt Ward loves to do: lump the mid 20s handicapper in with the beginners who struggle to hit the ball airborne. Hell, Tiger hits 'em OB occasionally, too, that doesn't mean one should generalize that to "plus handicappers who can't keep the ball on the golf course".

[Garland Bayley]

I really think the game of golf is that much fun to a high handicaper.  If golf was five bucks a round, then maybe it would be alright to hack the ball, chunck it, and slice the ball o.b. I am finally gettting a bit better at this game (about an 11 handicap) but when I first started as a 25 handicap the game was very frustrating.  If I am spending anywhere from 50 to 200 bucks a round on average, stinking up the joint is not fun.

So why were you spending 50 to 200 bucks a round? As a 30 handicapper, I joined a modest club and figured I was spending 6 bucks a round.

[Garland Bayley]

George

"Your numbers are a bit off. 25s don't shoot 130. You're mistaking beginners for 25s"

Wrong!

Come to Dornoch one of these days and play in the Burghfield Open.  One year I saw a team of 3, with handicaps between 8 and 18 shoot an aggregate 411.  The low handicap shot 127.  I played in an Open last summer at my home course (Aberdour, 5400 yards, par 67) with a scratch player who was trying to shoot a score to get on the Fife team.  He shot 88, after being 2 under through 7.  If he could do that, a 25 could easily shoot 130.  You'd be lucky to break 150!

S**t happens, my son.....

Rich

There's golf, and there's tournament golf. They are not at all the same.

Gee, I should copyright that.

My general point holds, imho. Pat is doing the same thing Matt Ward loves to do: lump the mid 20s handicapper in with the beginners who struggle to hit the ball airborne. Hell, Tiger hits 'em OB occasionally, too, that doesn't mean one should generalize that to "plus handicappers who can't keep the ball on the golf course".

I got news for you. The clear implication from Tom Wishon's The Search for the Perfect Golf Club is that Matt Ward is consistently hitting them OB with that ridiculous 47" vanity driver of his.

Isn't that right Lyne?

[jeffwarne]

I suck at bowling and have a lot of fun every time I bowl.
and at $55 (+ shoes )an hour in The Hamptons for a lane it's certainly not cheap entertainment.

25 s do shoot 130-they just don't know it. When you're laying 8 and pick it up in a bunker that's not a 6x.

[Anthony Gray]

25 s do shoot 130-they just don't know it. When you're laying 8 and pick it up in a bunker that's not a 6x.

  A 6x. Maybe I'm a 18 masquerading as a 12.


  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

...

25 s do shoot 130-they just don't know it. When you're laying 8 and pick it up in a bunker that's not a 6x.

Handicap review time! For a 25, that is an 8x. A 30 handicapper still has one more chance to hole it before they get a 9x.

[jeffwarne]

confession time
I use bumpers when I bowl with my son
so i'm a fraud as well

[Kalen Braley]

I think its easier to be lucky in bowling.  I've bowled over 200 twice and in the 180s and 190s a handful of times....and I'm no bowler.   

[George Pazin]

I suck at bowling and have a lot of fun every time I bowl.
and at $55 (+ shoes )an hour in The Hamptons for a lane it's certainly not cheap entertainment.

25 s do shoot 130-they just don't know it. When you're laying 8 and pick it up in a bunker that's not a 6x.

The arrogance of better golfers on this site never ceases to amaze me.

Of course they could shoot one on occasion. Pro golfers shoot in the 80s and even 90s occasionally, too. Daly cards 13s with alarmingly regularity (more frequently than me, even, although he also plays a bit more...).

But if you agree with Pat's generalization that he'd quit the game if he was a 25, hitting grounders, slicing it OB and missing greens (gee, I guess better golfers never miss greens, I mean, THE BEST tour pros only hit 70% of them), then you, too, are confusing beginners with 25 handicappers.

Read Peter's Pallotta's posts and maybe you'll better understand what I'm saying. There are in fact golfers who don't play very frequently, and lack the 1000s of rounds as a teenager that many or most on here have that would allow them to grind out 85s instead. These guys can easily shoot a 95 with no topped balls or pick ups. I know, I've done it many times.

Perhaps some should be a little more thankful of the situations that have allowed them to become better golfers...

[jeffwarne]

George,
Sorry if I offended (not my intention and in fact I poked a bit of fun at Pat in protest)-I happen to agree with you and if you follow the thread back you'll see we're on the same page.
and I am thankful for the opportunities I was given (and made) as a kid and young man.....as I'm sure you're thankful for whatever you had the chance to hone your skill at.

I do not agree with pat's other statements or I'd be out of a job-pretty sure I never stated or inferred that.

As you point out pros shoot 90's occasionally (esp. club pros)
I never got the training or time as a kid to improve my bowling, but I'm not too upset about it-and I always have fun.

If someone is a 25, and playing a tough course, that means their BEST 10 scores are averaging about 97-101 (after equitable stroke control).
Someone who lays 8 and has skulled three in a row, or hit two out of bounds and picks up, is unlikely to make an 8 on a hole and that number could go as high as 13-15.
Throw in some wind. tall grass, OB, unfamiliarity, and God forbid, a stroke play tournament with no gimmes, and someone having a round where they hit the ball 25-30% more than usual would not be unexpected.
The same as a scratch shooting 90.

I don't believe a beginner could shoot 130 either on most golf courses .

Of course a 25 who was short and steady would have less variance.

It's not just 25's it's everybody.

In our Club Championship it takes 87 or so to qualify for the Championship flight (not the back tees and middle pins) and there are usually several scores over 100 and many over 90
Every year a 25 or so says to me he should've tried out for the Championship Flight as he shot an 89 just last Sunday.

I had a 21  INSIST that we play a stroke player qualifier for the CC for all flights because he didn't want to be with the players in his flight because they couldn't play to their handicaps.
On a hard golf course, I can't even imagine getting a full field
 around in real stroke play with handicaps above 10-15.

I play most of my golf with 25's (by choice) but trust me most really don't have an actual total score at the end of the day--Nor should they as match play is the way to go.
but it does crack me up when a guy adds up his score and announces he shot 90 when didn't get to the green on 7 holes (yet lost 3 ways -getting 25 shots)

[Lyne Morrison]

Garland - one of the things this game always does is reveal character.   

I see many senior golfers at my club who play very respectable golf around the 23 - 27 hcp range. These folk are in their 70's and 80's and are certainly not hackers, they know their game and they take it seriously - they just dont have the length anymore. I try to make the time to team up with some of the older ladies for the occasional ambrose event, they love the fact that they can still contribute at the short game end. Wonderful that they are still out on the course in my opinion.

By the way, I know a few single figure guys in the 4-6 range who would walk over hot coals to get a copy of that book.

Cheers -- Lyne

[Rob Rigg]

I don't think it is fair to stereotype on this one.

Fun is based on your outlook, not your handicap.

A 25 hcp can take his game as seriously as a 5 hcp if he is chomping to move up the curve and dedicating heavy time and money.

Someone who is a 5 hcp in their teens and routinely shoots in the mid-70s even though they only play a few times a year can certainly have as much fun being on the course as a 25 hcp Mom/Dad who appreciates the chance to get a few hours of "down" time with their friends.

A Scratch golfer who "just loves being out there" will enjoy their golf as much as the 70 year old who is probably still able to walk because playing with friends a couple times a week keeps him motivated.

It is all relative. Of course, speaking from experience, it can be tough to "enjoy" your scoring when you used to play a lot in hs/college and shot in the 70s which seems like a dream now, but that is when maturity comes into the picture and realize the tremenous value of "golf fun" because it can be few and far between.

The beauty of the game is that you do not have to be good at it to enjoy it, because there is something in it for us all to love. Every good shot is relative, every bad shot is relative, not just based on your handicap but based on your outlook in life.

[Reef Wilson]

Great thread. No definitive answer I'm sure. It's all relative.

Even the worst players have great moments. I'm sure there are quite a few 25+ who have aces and many many more sink a bomb regularly enough to have that glory moment that washes away thousands of crappy shots.

Scratch players can still have snowmen that will haunt them for weeks.

[Steve Lang]

   I like to suggest the null thread to this..

CAN LOW HANDICAPPER'S ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES OF HAVING MORE FUN, AND KEEP THEIR EGO INTACT?

[Rick Sides]

Garland,
What club do you belong to that you can play for an average of 6 bucks a round.  I don't know where you live, but in NJ, most municipal courses around here are over 3,000 a year to play for a membership, and that doesn't include carts.  When i take my son to play miniture golf  here it's 10 bucks a round.  Is that what you meant?