Architects and grassing choices

[Anthony_Nysse]

With all the recent talk about ultradwafts vs bentgrass and maintaining grain vs removing it, Im wondering just how involved architects are in the grassing selections of the courses they design.
  Take a course like Chechessee Creek  outside of Hilton Head Island, SC. The greens there have some SEVERE slope to them and during growing months, (April-October) the greens are fine and one does not have to worry about the greens getting out of control, regarding speed.  But in the wonter months, the greens are overseeded. These greens were built before the phenomenon of painting was proven and used. In fact, I've heard that the greens there are actually overseeded so that they can control the speed because the dormant bermuda would present greens that were unputtable. With all the budgets cuts, and a strong push to just painting bermudagrass greens, are architects taking this into consideration when designing a green? Is anyone designing greens with less contour, to give a maintenance staff/membership an option to overseed or not?
  I've heard a similar story about Cuscowilla only that they were designed to be bermudagrass and ended up being seeded with bent, which in the time I played there on a Febuary day, were WAY too fast for the contours.
  When Doak, Nuzzo, Brauer, Devries and other architects design a course in the south, particularly with an ultradwaft is encouraged to be used, is this given any thought when building a green?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

I haven't had the chance to build a course in the South for a while now, except for our current project at the Bay of Dreams, Mexico.  In that situation, we'll have paspalum on the greens, and we could probably put MORE contour in them if we wanted because I don't see the paspalum getting to 11 or 12.

However, I would like to say that we architects don't control what speed greens are maintained.  I am pretty sure Bill Coore doesn't want Cuscowilla's greens maintained at 11 or 12 on the stimp ... but his client does, and didn't make that decision until late in the game.  I've had 3 clients that I can remember promise me that the greens would be Speed X on an everyday basis, only to run them at (X+2) once the course opened.  That experience has made me a little more cautious about putting green contours ... but we still don't make them flat.

Also, maybe a dumb question ... but would those dormant greens at Chechessee HAVE to be so fast?  Couldn't they leave the grass just a bit longer before they go completely dormant?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,
  I'm going to guess that Lost Dunes was one of your courses where you designed the greens for a certain speed, but their being maintained differently.
  I do know that alot of courses that do not overseed with raise their heights from less that 1/8 of an inches to 5/16, (.156) which is pretty high for an ultradwaft. It can take a while to work back down from that height. I guess the biggest problem, even when raising heights, is that once a green goes dormant, there really isnt any way to slow them down if they get too fast. 
  I'm hoping a few supt/asst supt who have more experience with dormant greens will chime in. Mine is limited.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Kyle Harris]

Tom/Tony,

In Florida we were cutting greens daily at Mountain Lake through the dormant season and there was a perceptible difference in green speed through the day. From my experience, the dormant greens were fastest 2-3 hours after the cut and slowed down significantly in the afternoon after about 4PM.

We were cutting the dormant greens between .115 and .130 with the lower cut occurring toward the end of the dormant season. They usually stimped in the neighborhood of 10-11 in the areas we could actually use a stimpmeter.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tony,
There are options besides ultradwarfs. At Wolf Point we used emerald dwarf which is not as dense, or thatch producing, as the ultradwarfs. We didn't want the grass to dictate the design and we wanted dry greens. Emerald puts down 3 to 4 times the root depth of the ultradwarfs so it works great with a deep, infrequent irrigation program. The fact that it doesn't need to be aerified 4 times a year was nice as well. We had the greens to .115 in the summer but the client likes 'em a little slower than that as the contours are severe. Not so bad for putting when that fast, but miss a green and the speed and frimness can make chipping a real adventure. Emerald will not get as fast as champion, but I think that's good in some cases.

Tom,
Raising the HOC going into the winter is a good idea and one way to combat the spped of non-overseeded greens. But even doing that, by late January they are going to be very quick.

[Kyle Harris]

As an addendum to my previous post. There were days when we would skip cutting and simply roll the greens and this happened a few times a month but we never went two consecutive days without a cut.

[ed_getka]

I'm not familiar with "painting" greens. Is that what they are literally doing, just painting the dormant grass?

[Kyle Harris]

I'm not familiar with "painting" greens. Is that what they are literally doing, just painting the dormant grass?

Yes.

The method was on the cover of the USGA Green Record Bulletin about a year ago... 

Thanks, guys.

[David Druzisky]

As a GCA that has done a fair amount of design and renovation work in the desert SW I have worked with a bunch of superintendents to determine the best formula for what we are trying to achieve in terms of the desired golfing experience.  Grassing and most specifically greens grassing is a big part of that with so many choices available in types and varieties that need to be balanced with all the other variables.  Private vs public, maint budget, design style etc.

I will say though that things seem to change fairly rapidly though with what the GC Superintendents are doing and 3 years after we make initial decissions regarding turf type, they may change their approach. I think that speaks to the theory that these newer ultradwarfs are really just that, new and everyone is still trying to determine best management of them.   

In phoenix alone there are so many micro climate differences from one side of town vs the other with elevation changes dictating winter temps that we really have to properly consider so the super and I need to be on the same page from day 1.

In short, a "professional" golf course architect will definitely be involved and make sure everything variable is factored into the design.

[Ian Andrew]

I may be in the minority on grassing, but I explain how I want things to "play" and then let the superintendents select there own grasses. 

We may not push the envelope with grass selection, but I'm not going to be responsible for costing a superintendent's their job.

There have been a number of courses in Ontario that have pushed the envelope and ended up with less than stellar results.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I'm not familiar with "painting" greens. Is that what they are literally doing, just painting the dormant grass?

Ed,
 Alot of courses in the southeast, FL and southwest have begun going this several years back. This provided the bermudagrass to not have ANY competition from overseed, this allows the superintendent to maintain 1 grass, and also allows the golfer to have very good putting surfaces, year round, to name a few.
  There are serveral different turfpaints that are used to paint greens, tees and I know of courses even painting fairways. Most courses will paint 2-4 times a season, depending on the temp. The turfpaint actually keeps the surface warmer and green up occurs earlier.

Don,
  I think that Carter Hindes, who posts here from time to time, has Emerald on the greens at Traditions. We sprigged at tee at Long Cove with it to see what it looked like.  I beleive The River Club at Kiawah Island actually has it on it's fairways. I've heard that it's like a newer Tifdwaft because its not as dense. What are your thoughts?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[ed_getka]

I'm not familiar with "painting" greens. Is that what they are literally doing, just painting the dormant grass?

Ed,
 Alot of courses in the southeast, FL and southwest have begun going this several years back. This provided the burmudagrass to not have ANY competition from overseed, this allows the superintendent to maintain 1 grass, and also allows the golfer to have very good putting surfaces, year round, to name a few.
  There are serveral different turfpaints that are used to paint greens, tess and I know of courses even painting fairways. Most course will paint 2-4 times a season, depending on the temp. THe trufpaint actually keeps the surface warmer and green up occurs earlier.

Don,
  I think that Carter Hindes, who posts here from time to time, has Emerald on the greens at Traditions. We sprigged at tee at Long Cove with it to see what it looks like.  I beleive The River Club at Kiawah Island actually has it on it's fairways. I've heard that it's like a newer Tifdwaft because its no so dense. WHat are your thoughts?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Anthony,
    Thanks for the feedback.

Kyle,
    Sorry to bother you, just don't respond the next time.

[Scott Witter]

I will go with Ian on this one...I believe us architects should stick to what we do best and describing how we want to course to 'play' is a response that should tell the owner and the super what we are after.  I also believe that an architect should have a very good working knowledge of the grasses--their performance and overall maintenence protocal expectations being used in the area of the project, for this will likely influence his/her decision for various design and playing characteristics they want to achieve. Having said that, however, there are countless times when the owner nods their head and turns a deaf ear and does what they want long after we are gone, Tom's example rings true all too often unfortunately

[Tom_Doak]

Scott (and Ian):

I appreciate your point of view, but the problem with letting the superintendent select the grasses is that he may only be the superintendent for a year or two ... on one occasion I let the super have his way, only to have him leave BEFORE opening day.

Also, many superintendents are no less likely than architects to choose a grass they don't know too much about because it's the new "in" thing and a seed salesman gave them a great pitch.

[Kyle Harris]

Ed,

I was directing my smarminess at you, but more toward the USGA. I'd like to see a good Cost/Benefit Analysis for painting greens vs. not overseeding them. Some of the best putting surfaces I've seen were purple TifEagle or MiniVerde.

Tom Doak,

What sort of disease pressure does Paspalum have in Mexico? My experience with it in Florida is that one will be spraying a lot of fungicide early on.

[ed_getka]

Ed,

I was directing my smarminess at you, but more toward the USGA. I'd like to see a good Cost/Benefit Analysis for painting greens vs. not overseeding them. Some of the best putting surfaces I've seen were purple TifEagle or MiniVerde.

Tom Doak,

What sort of disease pressure does Paspalum have in Mexico? My experience with it in Florida is that one will be spraying a lot of fungicide early on.

Kyle,
   My bad, not having met you before I should have given you the benefit of the doubt.

   Speaking of paspalum what are some of the other downsides to that type of grass? I was reading something about a course that had paspalum and they were having to work to keep it from invading their bent grass greens.

[Kyle Harris]

Ed,

I was directing my smarminess at you, but more toward the USGA. I'd like to see a good Cost/Benefit Analysis for painting greens vs. not overseeding them. Some of the best putting surfaces I've seen were purple TifEagle or MiniVerde.

Tom Doak,

What sort of disease pressure does Paspalum have in Mexico? My experience with it in Florida is that one will be spraying a lot of fungicide early on.

Kyle,
   My bad, not having met you before I should have given you the benefit of the doubt.

   Speaking of paspalum what are some of the other downsides to that type of grass? I was reading something about a course that had paspalum and they were having to work to keep it from invading their bent grass greens.

Ed,

There are a few different kinds of Paspalum. Bull Paspalum (or Bullgrass) is a rather hearty weed that can invade a green and requires a healthy dose of Monument to kill usually.

I think it's Seashore Paspalum that's used for putting surfaces.

[Ian Andrew]

Also, many superintendents are no less likely than architects to choose a grass they don't know too much about because it's the new "in" thing and a seed salesman gave them a great pitch.

Tom,

My experience has been largely the opposite - they tend to choose what they know best - unless they are very (and I mean very) confident in their research.

The other end of things is the also tend to blow me away with accomplishments well beyond my expectations. The short grass areas around Rock Creek have defied all my preconceptions on the limits of bluegrass.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Ed,

I was directing my smarminess at you, but more toward the USGA. I'd like to see a good Cost/Benefit Analysis for painting greens vs. not overseeding them. Some of the best putting surfaces I've seen were purple TifEagle or MiniVerde.

Kyle,
  The cost/benefit analysis for painting greens vs not overseeing is just that-the cost of paint. The paint is just for color, much like overseeding.

Paspalum on greens does require more fungicides that an ultradwaft. (brown patch)Paspalum DOES need fresh water to be grown in. It also is more abrassive on reels/bed knifes and can putt like velcro if not maintained right. There are also VERY few pesticides labeled for paspalum.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Kyle Harris]

Ed,

I was directing my smarminess at you, but more toward the USGA. I'd like to see a good Cost/Benefit Analysis for painting greens vs. not overseeding them. Some of the best putting surfaces I've seen were purple TifEagle or MiniVerde.

Kyle,
  The cost/benefit analysis for painting greens vs not overseeing is just that-the cost of paint. The paint is just for color, much like overseeding.

Paspalum on greens does require more fungicides that an ultradwaft. (brown patch)Paspalum DOES need fresh water to be grown in. It also is more abrassive on reels/bed knifes and can putt like velcro if not maintained right. There are also VERY few pesticides labeled for paspalum.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

The labeling thing was a problem with the Paspalum grow-in I was involved with. Unfortunately, a bunch of spurges got into the greens mix during the sprigging process and there was a rather lengthy trial and error period in getting the right mixes to knock out the spurge but not stress the paspalum too much. Add the fact that Brown Patch was rampant and laughing at all the 26GT, et al. being thrown at it and the grow-in becomes a length and patience testing process.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don,
  I think that Carter Hindes, who posts here from time to time, has Emerald on the greens at Traditions. We sprigged at tee at Long Cove with it to see what it looked like.  I beleive The River Club at Kiawah Island actually has it on it's fairways. I've heard that it's like a newer Tifdwaft because its not as dense. What are your thoughts?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,
My thoughts are Emerald is earning its place alongside the ultradwarfs. If you want the fastest greens possible then champion and mini verde will remain the favorites. But, if you want contour, a lot more root meaning  less irrigation frequency, and less maintenance, emerald will be the grass you want. With regulation, regular top dressing, and HOC at .125, speeds in the 10 range are no problem.  Most importantly, you can have speeds of 10 and very dry greens because of the deep rooting.
All bermudas have above ground spreading parts, stolons, and below ground spreading parts, rhizomes. Emerald has few stolons and lots of rhizomes, so unlike most bermudas, it rarely gets puffy due to stolon stacking. That’s why it rarely needs vertical mowing. Because of this it will work cut at 1/4in to ½ inch in approaches and fwys as well. It’s the only bermuda I know that you can plant through the green and on the green as well.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just an aside, but this interesting discussion got me thinking about how the grassing choices for fairways and roughs impacts the way a course evolves. I think that if different grasses were used for fairways and roughs, it would be harder (and more expensive) for others to come in at some future date and alter the fairway widths and mowing lines that the architect intended (and also harder for others to come along and wreck all the work the architect did in trying to blur/tie in the fairways and mowing lines with the surrounds and the overall site). Do most architects have a choice about using different grasses? Do most prefer having two different kinds, or is what I said above not accurate? 

Peter

[TEPaul]

"In Florida we were cutting greens daily at Mountain Lake through the dormant season and there was a perceptible difference in green speed through the day. From my experience, the dormant greens were fastest 2-3 hours after the cut and slowed down significantly in the afternoon after about 4PM.

We were cutting the dormant greens between .115 and .130 with the lower cut occurring toward the end of the dormant season. They usually stimped in the neighborhood of 10-11 in the areas we could actually use a stimpmeter."


Kyle:

At GMGC most of last year our HOC was .105 which seemed to produce about 9-10 without rolling. Roll them and it was up about a foot. Towards the end of the year the HOC was dropped some which I don't really agree with. For our course on a daily basis around 10 is all we need, in my opinion, and maybe up to 11 for tournaments. We have A-4 greens.

Our greens in the winter have always fascinated me. I've never stimped them but sometimes they seem really fast---I've called it "winter fast" for years.

[Scott Witter]

Tom,

I agree with you re: the newest and greatest hybrid...many supers fall prey to this, so what I didn't say, but should have was that depending on the experience and knowledge of the super, we really never know where this may fall and often we have no say in who is hired, I would want to involve a guy like Dave Wilber, or another similar individual who has current and past knowledge of grasses and who understands what the architect is after.  This person could also be supportive for the architect and frankly the super, but remain objective, I believe that is essential and even help sway/educate the owner.

[Carter Hindes]

Don,

What you said about emerald is right on.  I completely agree with you.  We have two tees on the golf course that were planted with Emerald.  They are tight, minimal scalping in the summer(even when we are cutting at .250), and do very well transitioning in the spring.   They perform much better throughout the year than the Tifsport.

Our members actually enjoy the golf course just as much in the dead of winter as they do in the summer because the non-overseeded (Emerald bermuda) greens play so firm and fast.  It does helps that we have a deep rooting grass.  We have yet to paint this year because the greens are fairly green still, but looking at the 10 day, we are probably getting close.