Arthur Spring and the Dingle Peninsula

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks to Mike Keiser and http://www.springgolf.ie/about.asp, we should have a bit to discuss for the next few months.

[K Rafkin]

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/bandon-dunes-creator-mike-keiser-close-deal-inch-strand-property-irelands-dingle-peninsula

for those who require a bit more information.

[Tim_Weiman]

Thanks to Mike Keiser and http://www.springgolf.ie/about.asp, we should have a bit to discuss for the next few months.

Ronald,

Well, this is a blast from the past. About 10-12 years ago, Dr Spring gave me a tour of Inch. It isn't really a place you can see in one day. One should probably take 2-4 days for an initial visit.

At that point Dr Spring was about 17 years into the planning permission process and nobody thought there was ever a chance anything would ever happen. He had sketched out four courses, but hoped he could just get one approved....... eventually.

It was around that time I also discussed Inch with Mike Keiser while at the Renaissance Cup held at Stonewall. Mike wasn't familiar with Inch. I told him about Arthur Spring, how long he had been working on the site and also how he had worked a long time before getting squeezed out of the Doonbeg project.

Specifically, I told Mike "even if there is a 99% chance Inch will never happen, you should go see the place". Then, I said "let me correct that. Even if there is a 100% chance nothing ever happens there you have to see Inch".

I had the chance to visit Inch again when Jim Urbina asked me to take Rubert O'Neill to Ireland, especially to spend time at Ballybunion, Lahinch, Dooks, etc., but, I insisted Rupert and I also set aside a day for Inch. It was probably the most enjoyable day we spent.

Inch is absolutely amazing. My only reservation is exactly what Jim Urbina and I later discussed and now, apparently, Mike Keiser wants Jim to help with: construction.

Inch has golf holes everywhere. There are places you can stand and see 4-5 holes. Easy.

But, much of it contains what Jim imagined and called "embryonic dunes". So, the task may be to sort out where can you really build golf holes rather than just imagine them.

Wow, if all this really happens, I will be speechless.

[David Ober]

I had the great pleasure of meeting Mr. Spring when I was recently in Ireland. I met getting ready to tee it up at Dooks, and then we met up and played Tralee and Ballybunion the next day. What an absolute treat it was to meet him and play golf with him. He mentioned Inch to us then. I hope it will one day happen....

[Duncan Cheslett]

Avid listeners to BBC Radio 4 will delight in the typo in the Golf.com article;

He has chosen Ireland’s Arthur Spring to design the course, a name completely unfamiliar to Americans. Yet, he’s designed more than a dozen courses since 1989 and was a strong enough player to have gained his European Seniors Tour card in 1997.

Most importantly to Keiser is that Strong has had routings done on the property for 20 years and has already had at least one approved that precedes the EU (European Union) restrictions about building golf along the coast. Keiser is confident that they are in compliance with all of the relevant EU statutes, but is a very aware that a litigant could step forward, sooner or later, and delay the project further.

Arthur Strong? I'm not sure we can Count on him to deliver a world-class golf course!

 

[Thomas Dai]

Is this peninsula the Inch area under discussion?

Bingmap - http://binged.it/1uEZhqf

If so, the peninsula opposite, west of Glenbeigh, also looks interesting. Where there's a will there's a way.

atb

[Ed Tilley]

Whilst I would say that Dooks (and therefore the Inch peninsula) is, without a shadow of doubt, the most scenically beautiful golf course I've ever played, I have one question:

- Does that part of Ireland really need another golf course? You already have Ballybunion, Waterville and Tralee within an hour of that very spot, with Lahinch, Doonbeg, and even Old Head in easy reach. Not to mention Dooks, Killarney, Dingle, Ring of Kerry etc.

I'm sure it would be amazing and the potential is fantastic. I'm also sure it would be successful but is that really the point? As a golfer, and a links lover, I would be excited. However, I can't help but feel that this is a bit unnecessary?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is this peninsula the Inch area under discussion?

Bingmap - http://binged.it/1uEZhqf

If so, the peninsula opposite, west of Glenbeigh, also looks interesting. Where there's a will there's a way.

atb

The opposite peninsula (just down the road from Dooks) has suffered extreme erosion in the last few years, to the extent that the entire dune system is under threat. I'm not just talking about a few metres - more like millions and millions of tonnes of sand have been swept away.

IF the Inch peninsula ever does receive planning permission, then it will be the culmination of a long held dream for Dr Spring. The end course - I'm sure - will be seen as a co-design with Jim Urbina and that alone should be an exciting prospect. That said, I'm sure that planning isn't a foregone conclusion, especially with all that shifting sand. It will be interesting to see if Mike Keiser's methods have as much (or more) success than Donald Trump's methods.

I have mixed views - I spent a week surfing with the kids at Inch in August just gone. I'd love to see a golf course there but would prefer it to be just one and very low key, not changing the overall dynamic of the area / peninsula.

[Ed Tilley]

Whilst I would say that Dooks (and therefore the Inch peninsula) is, without a shadow of doubt, the most scenically beautiful golf course I've ever played, I have one question:

- Does that part of Ireland really need another golf course? You already have Ballybunion, Waterville and Tralee within an hour of that very spot, with Lahinch, Doonbeg, and even Old Head in easy reach. Not to mention Dooks, Killarney, Dingle, Ring of Kerry etc.

I'm sure it would be amazing and the potential is fantastic. I'm also sure it would be successful but is that really the point? As a golfer, and a links lover, I would be excited. However, I can't help but feel that this is a bit unnecessary?

Honestly, Ed. Wrong website.

I was well aware that this would not be a popular opinion on this site. However, you do have to draw the line somewhere! As Ally says - mixed views on this one. We are looking at going to Glenbeigh in August for a week to go surfing (and me sneak out for a couple of rounds of golf). It is a beautiful unspoilt spot - care needs to be taken not to spoil it! Low key, not housing.

[Thomas Dai]

Ally,

Thank you for the information. Coastal erosion can be really severe, sand doesn't half shift damn quickly. The whole area looks amazing, somewhere that I've not yet visited but have long wanted too, so your comment about family and surfing rings a bell as well, sufing for the family and maybe some golf as well - Dooks in particular is a course I've be longing to play for years.

atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

Thank you for the information. Coastal erosion can be really severe, sand doesn't half shift damn quickly. The whole area looks amazing, somewhere that I've not yet visited but have long wanted too, so your comment about family and surfing rings a bell as well, sufing for the family and maybe some golf as well - Dooks in particular is a course I've be longing to play for years.

atb

In the 2008 storm, they lost 100m of coastline on that peninsula. Wiped out over a few days.

The Dingle peninsula is gorgeous. Dingle itself is a lively town with some genuinely good restaurants and pubs. But if you really want to get away from things, there are a group of 8, beautiful self catering cottages overlooking Inch strand from where you can spend every day surfing on one of the safest and most enjoyable surfing beaches in the country. One which also has a restaurant / café / bar right on the sand but very little else in the area. It is a spot that will immediately be changed by international investment and one that will lose much of its aura.

When I dreamt of a golf course in the area, it was one that used the pub as the clubhouse with a back room and open fire the location for the golfers... Obviously, that ain't gonna happen...

EDIT - Mr Sheehy, we seemed to cross posts.... If 2 or 3 golf courses are eventually built on this land, you don't believe they will come with a bunch of lodges / accommodation, even if they are "tasteful" in the big scheme of things? I'm not against the development. In fact, I'm quite excited about it. But that little spot is an unspoilt haven for Irish families to have a bit of seaside fun (with nary a "tourist" in sight).

[Tom_Doak]

It would be terrific if the project happens, but I don't know how realistic it is.  For a links in Ireland you don't just need to get the Scottish government to roll over ... you need to get all of Europe to relax its view of development in sand dunes.  Really, I think the only way to do so would be to build a course like Askernish where you don't have to move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas.

Someone told me years ago there are portions of the property at Inch where that would be possible, but not the most dramatic portions.

[Ed Tilley]

Ed, are you kidding me? Housing? This is Kerry, we're talking about, not Florida. That landscape will not be spoilt by a golf course. It will be both visually enhanced and also occupied by more people who will actually enjoy it. Let's face it - it's hardly enjoyed by many now. Yes, there are surfers, swimmers and the occasional walker - but  not a fraction of the amount of people who will visit this wonderful area if a course were to reside there. A big thumbs up from me. Put me in the camp that believe Golf courses enhance nature rather than the other way around.

Lodges and a big clubhouse - a bit like Doonbeg.

Machrihanish Dunes is a bit different as it is a course owned by the Ugadale Hotel (or the group that owns the hotel). The clubhouse and lodging is therefore right by the Machrihanish course - with complimentary transfers for hotel guests. It would make absolutely no sense for lodging and/or a big clubhouse to be built at Mach Dunes as it is only a stopping point before being transferred back to the hotel. As a stand alone operation this would need to be different. If you think they would go through all the hassle to build something akin to CastleG then I think that is a bit naïve.

Also - a course does reside there. Dooks is 300 yards from the Inch peninsula as the crow flies and gets a number of visitors.

[Ally Mcintosh]

It would be terrific if the project happens, but I don't know how realistic it is.  For a links in Ireland you don't just need to get the Scottish government to roll over ... you need to get all of Europe to relax its view of development in sand dunes.  Really, I think the only way to do so would be to build a course like Askernish where you don't have to move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas.

Someone told me years ago there are portions of the property at Inch where that would be possible, but not the most dramatic portions.

For my money, this is the only way we should be building links courses these days, give or take.... Local shaping around green and tee sites, maybe a bit of local earth moving on certain portions of the fairway just to assist the final golf hole, the rest mowed out and treated.

Some fescue seeding, some use of sod from on-site

Back to basics.

Why I keep seeing links courses spend large sums of money to make "high-spec" changes, I'm not sure... Actually, I am sure. It's because of the fear of failure from architects and owners and the need to ensure the conditioning is spot-on from the word go.

[David Minogue]

I know there have been some previous exchanges on this site regarding the competence of Dr. Arthur Spring as an architect, I have my own opinions on the man and his work.

Does anyone feel this is a political movement by Mr. Keiser?? Is he hiring a local architect to assist in the project being built or because of his experience.

Cheers,
David

[Thomas Dai]

It would be terrific if the project happens, but I don't know how realistic it is.  For a links in Ireland you don't just need to get the Scottish government to roll over ... you need to get all of Europe to relax its view of development in sand dunes.  Really, I think the only way to do so would be to build a course like Askernish where you don't have to move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas.
Someone told me years ago there are portions of the property at Inch where that would be possible, but not the most dramatic portions.

For my money, this is the only way we should be building links courses these days, give or take.... Local shaping around green and tee sites, maybe a bit of local earth moving on certain portions of the fairway just to assist the final golf hole, the rest mowed out and treated.
Some fescue seeding, some use of sod from on-site
Back to basics.
Why I keep seeing links courses spend large sums of money to make "high-spec" changes, I'm not sure... Actually, I am sure. It's because of the fear of failure from architects and owners and the need to ensure the conditioning is spot-on from the word go.

I like Tom's sentence - "don't....move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas."

As a member as Ballyliffin once said to me, "the Old Course* was made by one man with a mower, the Glashedy was made by men with big machines". Others might disagree, for although I like the Glashedy, I much prefer the Old and would like to see new links courses built in a similar manner.

And of course, many an olde worlde GB&I club/course started off, to use Ally's words, with "the pub as the clubhouse with a back room and open fire the location for the golfers".

Thanks for the Insh holiday tips Ally, off to do some web searching

atb

* later Faldo-isms etc apart

[Ally Mcintosh]

It would be terrific if the project happens, but I don't know how realistic it is.  For a links in Ireland you don't just need to get the Scottish government to roll over ... you need to get all of Europe to relax its view of development in sand dunes.  Really, I think the only way to do so would be to build a course like Askernish where you don't have to move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas.
Someone told me years ago there are portions of the property at Inch where that would be possible, but not the most dramatic portions.

For my money, this is the only way we should be building links courses these days, give or take.... Local shaping around green and tee sites, maybe a bit of local earth moving on certain portions of the fairway just to assist the final golf hole, the rest mowed out and treated.
Some fescue seeding, some use of sod from on-site
Back to basics.
Why I keep seeing links courses spend large sums of money to make "high-spec" changes, I'm not sure... Actually, I am sure. It's because of the fear of failure from architects and owners and the need to ensure the conditioning is spot-on from the word go.

I like Tom's sentence - "don't....move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas."

As a member as Ballyliffin once said to me, "the Old Course* was made by one man with a mower, the Glashedy was made by men with big machines". Others might disagree, for although I like the Glashedy, I much prefer the Old and would like to see new links courses built in a similar manner.

And of course, many an olde worlde GB&I club/course started off, to use Ally's words, with "the pub as the clubhouse with a back room and open fire the location for the golfers".

Thanks for the Insh holiday tips Ally, off to do some web searching

atb

* later Faldo-isms etc apart

Depends how literally you want to take the words "Don't move ANY dirt".... Askernish certainly did some tweaking, Mach Dunes built their green sites and tees but didn't touch the fairways other than to formalise bunkers. These are the two courses that have probably moved least dirt in the modern era... well known courses anyway...

It you are going to take it word for word literally, you will likely end up with a compromise golf course. Also, you won't need Jim Urbina...

[Tom_Doak]

Depends how literally you want to take the words "Don't move ANY dirt".... Askernish certainly did some tweaking, Mach Dunes built their green sites and tees but didn't touch the fairways other than to formalise bunkers. These are the two courses that have probably moved least dirt in the modern era... well known courses anyway...

It you are going to take it word for word literally, you will likely end up with a compromise golf course. Also, you won't need Jim Urbina...

Ally:

Yes, I understand this completely ... it seems a waste not to allow little changes that would make the course significantly better ... even the removal of a dune or two if that's what it took to produce something outstanding.  I can't understand how any of that would really make a significant difference in the ecology of the area. 

But, then it's so easy to go from that to stripping off the grass from the entire playing area and buffing it all out like we usually do in modern construction, and that's what the environmental groups are fearful of -- that we can't help but let our egos kick in the effort to build something "world class".  And, unfortunately, there is much truth to their fears.  The only question is whether the designer's changes are a matter of tiptoeing across the site or plowing through it, and as you know, not everyone does what they say they're going to.

[Ed Tilley]

But if you really want to get away from things, there are a group of 8, beautiful self catering cottages overlooking Inch strand from where you can spend every day surfing on one of the safest and most enjoyable surfing beaches in the country. One which also has a restaurant / café / bar right on the sand but very little else in the area.

Just checked - fully booked up from 1st May to 1st November 2015! Looks good though.

[jeffwarne]

It would be terrific if the project happens, but I don't know how realistic it is.  For a links in Ireland you don't just need to get the Scottish government to roll over ... you need to get all of Europe to relax its view of development in sand dunes.  Really, I think the only way to do so would be to build a course like Askernish where you don't have to move ANY dirt ... just mow it out, and then heavily topdress some areas.

Someone told me years ago there are portions of the property at Inch where that would be possible, but not the most dramatic portions.

I think it's OK to have mixed feelings about this.
And it's a bit disappointing to constantly see the obsession with "world class"
Askernish type design and maintenance . check
Throw in a clubhouse like CG's and you'd have me more  convinced.(at least the belt notchers won't hang around)
That WOULD be "world class"
I would hope that one very low key course and clubhouse shack (let a surfer design it) could blend seamlessly with the surfers, walkers, and enviromentalists, but I would hope whatever is done has full local support.

i realize it takes big time people to get something like this off the ground, and in this case the (potential) developer is about as sensitive as it gets.but I can't help but wonder why Spring has waited over 20 years for this and now.........
I guess it is far better than reading Trump has acquired the property

Not 100% sure I'm ready for Dingle to be overrun with logoed sweater vests.
I rather preferred the ratio before  

[Thomas Dai]

But if you really want to get away from things, there are a group of 8, beautiful self catering cottages overlooking Inch strand from where you can spend every day surfing on one of the safest and most enjoyable surfing beaches in the country. One which also has a restaurant / café / bar right on the sand but very little else in the area.

Just checked - fully booked up from 1st May to 1st November 2015! Looks good though.

I looked too. Must be damn good to be booked up solid for such a long period this far in advance.

In retrospect maybe I should have added something like 'generally speaking' or 'in principle' to my comments about moving dirt Ally!

atb

[Tim_Weiman]

Wow, imagine if you were the catalyst for all of this! It would be amazing if they pulled the Inch project off. A couple of years ago I posted a photo tour of Dr Spring's Castlegregory (which I've since taken down). I thought I was very complimentary about the course but a couple of my comments were taken as criticism, particularly my posing the question: "how good would it be if a designer of International repute had the site?". In hindsight, I accept most people would have taken that as a slight. But it wasn't really meant that way as I did not believe Arthur to be a full time architect, but someone who enjoyed cherry picking projects out of interest. He did some great work at CG, in my opinion, and will look forward to seeing how this turns out.
[/quote]

Brian S,

It would be going way too far too suggest I was the catalyst. Dr Spring was already 17 years into working on Inch when he showed me around the place. But, I did mention the site to Mike Keiser and, if memory serves me, he wasn't aware of the location.

I should also point out that Inch really hasn't been a secret. People like Herb Kohler have also taken a look, I believe. But, the challenge has always been getting planning permission, in part because people have long been asking the same question Ed Tilley raised: does this area really need another golf course?

We are now almost thirty years into the effort to get permission to build. It just may be that Inch's fate is to tease, a place for people to fantasize building but never actually be able to do it.

[Kirk Gill]

Such mixed feelings thinking about a golf course being built at that beautiful place. It's true that relatively few now really traverse it and enjoy it up close, and golf might bring more attention and appreciation of it. It may be true that the dunes there would be an ideal environment for the game. But it also exists now as a beautiful and rare place. I can see both sides, the desire for the course and the desire to leave it be. Like most who would have a problem with it, it seems the accoutrements of a course, the hotels and infrastructure, might offend my delicate sensibilities the most.

Ok, so my sensibilities aren't all that delicate. But you get my point. Wow, is that gorgeous. It looks like golf. The folks who currently own cottages there, I wonder if they would like the property value increase, or decry the traffic. BTW, that is not my photo, it's from a post on Tripadvisor.

[Ed Tilley]

But if you really want to get away from things, there are a group of 8, beautiful self catering cottages overlooking Inch strand from where you can spend every day surfing on one of the safest and most enjoyable surfing beaches in the country. One which also has a restaurant / café / bar right on the sand but very little else in the area.

Just checked - fully booked up from 1st May to 1st November 2015! Looks good though.

I looked too. Must be damn good to be booked up solid for such a long period this far in advance.

atb

I contacted the cottages and it appears that there is availability - the website has not updated for 2015 and it is showing fully booked when it isn't. Anyway, I'm booked in for next summer. We were going to rossbeigh on the other side of the bay but these look perfect for us. Thanks for the recommendation Ally .