[Steve Sayers]

I’ve looked in my American Heritage Dictionary to better understand how the adjective “quirky” can be applied to a golf course -- I just don’t get it.

Is quirkiness a good attribute in a golf course?

Should a course that has been described as quirky strive to “polish” (restore) its quirkiness or attempt to minimize it?

[Bob_Huntley]

Quirky. An abrupt twist or curve. A peculiar trait. Idiosyncrasy.

What other word could possibly describe Cruden Bay?

[THuckaby2]

Or Prestwick... or Pacific Grove... or Painswick... or many others!  But right on, Cruden Bay fits the term perfectly.

As for whether it is good or bad, that is in the eye of the beholder.  There are many in the "tough but fair" crowd that despise courses of this ilk.  I tend to seek them out, as do most in this discussion group, I'd say.

BTW Bob, I gotta love any "club" in which you are my "junior."

 

TH

[TEPaul]

Generally quirky is good! If you're referring to LuLu all it's quirk is good! If somebody over there is talking about getting rid of something they're calling quirky I would love to at least hear  about it.

Courses as early as LuLu and before WW1 had a lot of quirk! Into the Roaring Twenties things got a bit more normal but nothing like today. Quirk is good!

[BV]

An abrupt twist or curve, as per Mr. Huntley.

Isn't that what we like about the game of golf? Modern golf has certainly lost it with its antithetical emphasis on fairness.

[Steve Sayers]

TEPaul:

Well, I was referring to quirky in general, but trying to apply it to Lu Lu as that is the course I know best.  What features at Lu Lu would be considered quirky? Are there other area courses that are considered quirky that I can compare and contrast Lu Lu with?

Nobody is looking at removing features (unless you count trees), but as you know Ron Forse is working on a master plan, so who knows what will be presented, but I’m sure we are in competent hands.

TH:

I did not realize I had left the ranks of “newbie” – I got a second star!!

BV (Dr. V I'm assuming)

You were the first person I heard use the word quirky in terms of describing a course – perhaps you can point to specific example I may be familiar with at Lu Lu, Lehigh or other area courses.

Thanks all for your tutelage – perhaps I’ll get another star soon with your guidance!  

[Matt_Ward]

I guess I can be grouped in the category that Tom outlined -- although I don't mind courses being "different" provided there isn't an abundance of the following words that I would say align somewhat closely, if not exactly, with quirky ...

*Tricky
*Gotcha Golf
*Sporty

When I see course overdose on "quirky" features I know I'm in for something that usually is more bizarre than anything else.

Quirky courses can be defined in the same manner that former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said about pornography -- "I know it when I see it."

And, before anyone starts barking at me for ruining the zest for quirky courses let me say that I always use the test of the good / bad shot being rewarded / penalized proportionally to the degree it is executed.

Many times leigitmate quirky courses do not provide that fine sense of calibration in meeting out the terms I just indicated. Some people think it is grand that such dictates happen fairly routinely when playing quirky courses. I don't -- at least not at the level in which they usually occur.

Sometimes a course may have one or two quirkly holes, but the rest of the layout is solid in its presentation and determination of outcomes -- those kind of courses I'm personally OK with. Quirky courses, at least the ones I have played, often attempt to flim-flam the golfer by taking clubs out of your hands over and over again and impose unfair rewards / sanctions that have little to do with your actual execution -- hence the words "tricky" ... "gotcha golf" ... "sporty."

Finally, I'm often amused that people who generally "love" quirky courses are the first types who usually chatise courses that are more honestly demanding and often demand more skill with the longer clubs. I often think that people who favor quirky courses do so because they have little game for the much more brawny layouts. To give an example -- there are plenty of "quirky" courses in Westchester County (NY) that would probably meet the definition I offered. I'd much rather play the all-around gems such as WF, QR and a few others. If I need to see circus acts I usually go see Ringley Brothers Barnum & Bailey Show.

I like to play REAL golf not some miniature golf version of it.

Fire away gentlemen ...

[HNWTS]

Mr. Ward

Your quote....."I always use the test of the good/bad shot being rewarded/penalized proportionally to the degree it is executed".....appears to be very insightful in regard to your thought process when analyzing, reviewing and critiquing golf courses.  But before I jump to any conclusions on this, could you please take a moment to briefly describe your thoughts on the differences between the penal school of architecture and the strategic school of architecture and let me know if you would characterize yourself as liking one style more than the other?

Thanks,
HNWTS

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Sayers,

I think NGLA could fit into the quirky category without diluting its stature.

If holes # 1,2,3,4, aren't quirky, I don't know what is.
# 6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, and # 18 could have quirky used to partially describe them.

Perhaps there are degrees of quirky, and categories of quirky, some within a tolerable range, some on the border, and some beyond tolerable.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

There is quirky and there is Quirky. I am not a fan of forced or designed quirkiness; I prefer naturaly occuring quirk. I enjoy golf courses that present a number of quirky features or a quirky hole or two, but quirkiness which is forced comes across as sham. I'm not sure it is possible to avoid quirkiness on a well designed natural golf course - resulting in variety, fun and a sense of adventure. Is there truely great golf course that does not possess some form of quirkiness?

[Matt_Ward]

HNWTS:

The best way I can say it is the following:

Penal -- one way or nothing at all. Very little opportunity for degrees in determining success / failure. In people terms -- my way or the highway! The black and white school of thought -- produce or perish.

Strategic -- various avenues to proceed depending upon level of skill, confidence and execution. Unlike black'n white plenty of shades of color in the equation.

I don't have a specific school that I favor, but if I had to choose the strategic would be more of favorite than any other. I know from some of the courses I have played there are courses that have variety of different styles designed into them. I'm not against an individual hole or two being quirky as long as the opportunity to play the hole favors skill rather than luck or some form of chance. Much of the "style" of quirkiness deal on randomness and more reliance on style than substance. Heck, I guess you could easily make a case that the 17th at TOC is one of the ultimate quirk holes in all of golf.
Does it work? I'm fairly sure you'd get a strong argument on both sides of the issue.

I agree with Tom MacWood in that there is quirky and than there is QUIRKY. I imagine each of us has a level in which one is the former and one becomes the latter.

Hope this helps ...

[A_Clay_Man]

TM-I'm guessing ANGC. It would seem that a majority of quirk could be explained away if the site demanded it. Say to make a routing work or take advantage of some natural feature. When Mr. Jones searched for Augusta he was looking for the best piece of land.  When he found it I assume it lacked any quirk. Is this an accurate description?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Adam
I would agree that some sites promote quirkiness more than others, but I'm not sure there are any good sites that won't require a quirky feature here or there - if the designer works with nature. At ANGC unfortunately much of the quirkiness has been eliminated, the old 7th, the 16th and the 9th green, the 3rd is still pretty quirky and although its one of the most familar/seen holes in the world of golf, the severely uphill 18th is a very quirky hole.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Quirk is the 8th green at Lu Lu Temple or the 1st green at Plainfield, and the way the green slopes at #6 Merion or how Lehigh #4 uses a ravine like no other. From what I have been told, NGLA is a lesson in quirk. I truely believe that.

The 3rd at Pasatiempo is quirk, and so is the 7th at San Francisco  as you shoot into the valley of two ancient dunes and leave it to Tillie to create a green and bunker complex that could match the quirk which that part of the property had to offer.

Quirk is the tee shot at LACC #3 or how holes #3, 4, 8, 9 & 10 work off of those two small hills at The Valley Club. An even better terminology is just how perfectly a odd natural feature of the given land is utilized to it's fullest without having an an architect from Hendersonville, North Carolina grade-it away in attempts to create a CORE golfing experience.

[Steve Sayers]

Tommy:

Given your definition/treminology of quirky:

An even better terminology is just how perfectly a odd natural feature of the given land is utilized to it's fullest without having an an architect from Hendersonville, North Carolina grade-it away in attempts to create a CORE golfing experience.

I can now understand and appreciate how the word can be applied to a course, hole or feature.

Thanks!

SS

[ed getka]

Tommy,
 I am curious what you think is quirky about #3 at Pasatiempo? Its long, it difficult, but I can't imagine what is quirky about it. Hope you are feeling better this week.

[TEPaul]

SteveS:

Being as LuLu is such an old Ross course (Ross's first in Pa) there is quite a bit of great Quirk! Basically it looks like Ross picked out and used all the natural quirkiness on the property.

The second half of #2 is a fairly quirky (wonderful blind approach). #4 is most definitely quirky and of course TommyN's all time favorite the green-end of #8!! that looks to me like the side or high end of an old quarry (to the right of the green). I believe that second half of #16 is also quirky (wonderful short approach shot) whether Ross used natural terrain or enhanced it--the green-end of the hole is quite quirky. Can you see one of these modern formulaic designers building a hole like that? I can't. Even the approach to #11 is somewhat quirky by today's standards.

It all adds up to a very cool and unique (and quirky) little golf course!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ed, You snapped at my bait!!!!

I was hoping someone would.

It is very simple, observe how the hole plays much longer then it looks. It is situated on an uprise of the massive hill that makes up all of Pasatiempo. While standing on the tee, you are going up-hill; the target is up-hill; etc, etc.

What is even more a crime is the fact that the 3rd has been harmed by the hands of remodel archtects of past who have eliminated many of the even more deceiving and dramatic front bunkers that once existed on the hole.

It's still a great golf hole.

The greensite of the 11th also shares in this same quirky feature.

[ed getka]

Tommy,
I still don't think its quirky. It is obviously uphill, although more so than anyone thinks the first time they significantly underclub from the tee. The uphill is deceiving, but I wouldn't call that quirky. The fronting bunkering seems like it would make the hole extremely difficult. Was it deception bunkering down the slope a little or was it greenside? With the uphill and sideslope from left to right how did golfers get their ball onto the green?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ed, For those who play Pasatiempo for the first time, I love to see the look on their faces when they come up so short on the hole. In fact, I can only imagine the look on mine when I first played it!

I hit a perfect shot with a 2 iron (Back then) and it came up at least 20 yards short of the green! Looking at it today, I don't think I would have done it any different.

It is a sort of "Invisable" quirk if you will. How uncanny is it to misjudge the distance almost everytime on this hole just by looking at it?

Quirk comes in many forms in golf. Whether it be in how a green hugs a certain side of a small knoll or hill; The direction a hole follows like Redland's #8 which is a sort of bending dogleg "u-turn" with a reverse boomerang green. It can be a blind deception of any sort.

Lastly, it can be the enchanting way the way a certain feature just attracts you, and makes that ever lasting impression. There were so many great old courses that had this quirk, and unfortunately so many architects lean away from it.  Examples of modern quirk--

Apache Stronghold #5 (The green)
Talking Stick-North #2 (The imposing fence line, no matter how man-made it actually is.)(This also may be the best example in the game today of man-made quirk, which is almost an impossibility--almost! Leave it to Bill Coore to figure it out.***)
Pacific Dunes #9 (The paralyzing view from the tee and the feeling inside your head, as where to hit the ball)

Another example of man-made quirk could be the Road Hole at the Old Course. It is at the property lines where man and nature have challenged the very essence of the game. Man challenged back by building a hotel to maybe even circumvent it. Nature, has pushed the challenge right back into the face of aggression by still providing one of the more challenging shots in the game.

***I want to also add that it takes man to hi-light these quirks of nature on any of these features mentioned. The balance of quirk lies in just how it is presented to the person at any given time. It is a sort of natural challenge, if you will, by usings nature's imperfection to it's fullest. It is that imperfection that is perfect.

To me that is "Quirk."

[ed getka]

Tommy,
 Thanks for elaborating on your thoughts on quirkiness. I haven't seen Talking Stick or Apache yet, but I see what you are getting at. So what is the story on the fronting bunkers at Pasatiempo #3? Merry Xmas

[BV]

Steve

Good examples of Quirk at LuLu

UPHILL Quarry hole 107 yds long (#4)-That's quirky

Blind, downhill punchbowl green (#8)-That's quirky.


An odd twist, if you will  Those features that have a greater element of chance rather than fairness, less rewarding perhaps for a little skill, but more for a LOT of skill.

And Steve, you did assume right.

[Adam Clayman]

Perhaps the subject is making a mainstream comeback in other avenues?

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=1219&u_sid=10533806

[Ian Andrew]

Adam,

I'm glad you brought this subject back up.


Good, bad, ugly? That depends completely on the reviewer doesn’t it.

I've been enjoying repeats of a program called “Artland” about two people who chris-cross the United States looking at everything from famous buildings through to buildings built from scrap. They review everything from Modern art (which I struggle to get but enjoy trying) through to the world's largest ball of paint. From falling waters through to the Cadillac Ranch, the entire journey has been…loaded with quirky subject matter – which frankly makes for a much better trip than just the acknowledged best of what art has to offer.

After all – what is art – is purely subjective.

I've always sought out golf courses that step outside of convention. I love places like Tobacco Road and I have a feeling that I might find some of Desmond Muirhead’s work fun. I certainly enjoyed Tom's unconventional back nine at Pacific Dunes and I’ve always admire someone like Walter Travis building holes that fly in the face of convention. Quirky greens, quirky use of land like the 13th at Highlands Links, this all get my juices flowing.

I think I’d rather face a series of oddities like at Cruden Bay and accept the few moments that don’t seem quite right than play 18 holes where nothing breaks convention.

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