[TEPaul]

This is obviously going to be for the superintendents and agronomists out there:

How do you define the "vegetative process" or "vegetative planting process"

The reason I'm asking is I've been reading all the so-called "Agronomy Files", particularly between the Wilsons brothers of Merion and Piper and Oakley of the Dept of Agriculture. These files span about fifteen years (1911-to the late 1920s). They involve a number of other people including Walter Harban (Washington, Columbia GC), Edward Marshall (Ohio, Inverness GC) and Wynant Vanderpool (New York) and others.

These are the men responsible for setting up the USGA Green Section. It seems like their concern was that the seed merchants of that time were provided mixtures of grasses that were not what they advertized and ended up being unreliable in performance and endurance which was ending up costing American golf an unnecessary fortunein both initial seed cost and then agronomic failure or poor performance.

It seems like the research out of the Dept of Agriculture (Piper and Oakley and Carrier) was that to produce a reliable and enduring strain of bent grass a particular strain had to be identified, tested in plots (at their Arlington Virginia experimental station) and then disseminated to American golf (at least in the northern tier).

These guys were huge promoters of what they called the bent grass "vegetative planting process".

So my question to you supers and agronomists is----was the vegetative process (planting stolons) used to create a pure strain from which seed for general planting of courses could be derived or were they actually recommended that all courses (particularly in the northern tier) back then actually utilize stolon planting of particularly greens both then and for the foreseeable future?

[TEPaul]

As an interesting sideline to this subject, I should mention that one very famous course (Pine Valley) was considered to be the best OJT experimental laboratory for putting green agronomics by the Wilson Brothers and Piper and Oakley.

The reason was because by the early 1920s the course had three very distinct types of greens for agronomic observation:

1. The George Crump originals.

2. The greens redone under Frederick Winslow Taylor's experimental method (apparently something of a precusor to the USGA Spec green).

3. The greens they called the "Vegetative" greens.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
My guess is they encouraged the vegetative method because at the time it was the best way to assure quality. If you cut stolons from a plant and then take those stolons and plant them, it's all the same plant. Nowadays we have methods to make sure the seed we buy is exactly what we are supposed to get, in those days getting quality seed had to be tough. To assure quality, getting stolons from the mother plant was the best method.

I doubt the vegetative method was promoted to get a pure strain as much as it was to assure courses they were getting the right grass.

[TEPaul]

Don:

As I continue reading it seems that the reason you just gave above was definitely the primary reason they were promoting this as they did---identification, testing, quality. They had no faith at all in the seed merchants or in the agronomic information that was being disseminated. One guy they were really ticked at was this guy William Tucker (architect, super, whatever). They thought he was totally full of shit and he was getting his opinions in some of the primary magazines. This was a lot of the reason they created their Green Section Bulletin.

[RJ_Daley]

I saw a great example of the winter season grass vegitatively established process, a polystand of old bents, being vegitatively established and cultivated for resodding by a clever super named Scott Schaller, here in this area.  He set aside several 1000 sq ft of good rootzone median for a nursury green to be vegitatively established with cores from aeration on the old, mottled greens that had primarily Washington Bent and a mishmash of long breeding crosses.  The desire was to use the turf nursery grass as sod for reclaimed area or reworked a greens of the classic old course, for reasons of uniformity.  It wasn't that he couldn't easily and competently establish new bents in desired areas.  But, to maintain the long evolving stand consitently when that sod was plugged back into the old grounds as needed.  I also think I read where the Ohio State Scarlet course was going to do that under Hurdzan's direction at one time, several years ago as I reflect back now. 

Of course the obvious vegitatively established example is sprigging of Bermuda in the warm season climates. 

[TEPaul]

At this point I'd like to throw another little interesting nugget in here to prove how INCREDIBLY sophisticated these US Dept of Agriculture guys (Piper and Oakley and Carrier) were in 1920 as they strove to understand and improve golf course agronomy at a time when so few knew much of anything about it.

Alan Wilson wrote them and asked them what both Pine Valley and Merion could do to counteract an especially bad summer outbreak of GRUBS on the greens.

Oakley wrote back:

"I saw a lot of those grubs on one of the courses here the other day where chickens had access to them, and they had cleaned up the grubs but incidentally had scratched up the turf to an astonishing degree. You can use chickens or hogs to get the grubs but it is not very good for the turf. (On the other hand) I hope you have been able to make the kerosene emulsion work."

The most positive thing I can say about those remarks above is it's interesting when you read all this stuff what a great subtle sense of humor these guys had from time to time and that includes Piper and Oakley and Alan Wilson and his brother Hugh. I'm hoping Oakley's remarks about chickens and hogs and grubs on putting greens was, in fact, his subtle sense of humor.

[RJ_Daley]

Another old fashion way to kill them grubs is 'the spikes o'death'. 

[Ian Larson]

Id say he was kidding about the chickens and hogs. He was dead serious about the kerosene emulsion though. When a pesticide is mixed with a petroleum product in its manufacturing it is labeled an emulsifiable concentrate or EC.

Does that mean the Pine Valley and Merion fellows were the pioneers of todays synthetically made organic compound pesticides?

[TEPaul]

"Does that mean the Pine Valley and Merion fellows were the pioneers of todays synthetically made organic compound pesticides?"

Ian:

I doubt that but you should read some of this stuff in these old agronomy letters. Those guys back then were creative and imaginative but practical if anything. If they thought they could effectively kill grubs or whatever else ailed grass back then they'd use Aunt Millie's underwear if it seemed like it would work.

The other thing that really jumps out at you in this old material is how much they tested any kind of grass they thought could perform. They really didn't have much idea what would work and what won't back then. There just wasn't much in the way of reliable research in those days, not for grass for golf anyway. I mean the old stand-bys of fescue and bent were understood but there were and are so many variations and the seedmen (commercial) back then were really bad at identifying what they were giving you.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mr. Paul,

There was a terrible problem securing pure bentgrass seed in those days. Some bags of seed were diluted with so much red-top grass seed that there was really more red-top in the mix than bentgrass. Most of the seed was coming from overseas. There was however some bentgrass seed harvesting in Washington state from where bentgrass grew in the wild, and that supply seemed to be reliable.

Reginald Beale traveled to the very best clubs in America and he recommended his own pure supply of seed. Those clubs included Huntington Valley, Onwentsia, Mayfield, CC of Detroit, Merion, Myopia, Old Elm, and several others.

The USGA became involved in finding good grasses on golf courses and bringing vegetative samples back to grow in test plots. Those good grasses were from original seeds that just happened by chance to perform well. From these plots, seed was harvested to be planted on test plots all around the country were the grasses could be observed in different geological locations. The program was very very sophisticated with detailed mangement practices and everything.

To answer your question: I don't know if they intended to develop a commercial seed supply. I do know that various clubs around the country went to the USGA plots and obtained vegetative samples of their own for developing their own nurseries. The Superintendent at Westmoreland in Chicago, for instance, brought back C-15 bentgrass and developed a nursery on his course. From his own nursery he split plants and transplanted C-15 on all the greens until the entire course was C-15 greens. Those greens were the best greens in the entire midwest, and a nursery then obtained samples of the C-15 from Westmoreland and developed its own commercial supply that was transplanted, not from seed, but vegatatively.

There is a similar story to this with the Merion Bluegrass, which by the way is to this day, one of the best bluegrasses still.

Vegetative propagation assured that the green would be a monostand with no genetic diversity. You see, if a green was seeded from seed that was collected in the wild woodlands of South Germany, there might be great diversity of the grasses in the greens, but a vegetative propagation assured that the green would be a very uniform monostand.

The problem however, was that the lack of genetic diversity made the grass highly susceptable to pathologies. The great C-15 greens died of bacterial wilt starting at Butler National during the Western Open. C-15 could not tolerate cutting at an 1/8th of an inch.

The warm season grasses fill in quite nicely from vegetative propagation, but in the north it is more economical to get a good stand of grass up and playable from seed.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

I've got to hand it to you pal, this might not be the sexiest kind of subject this website sees but that answer of yours above seems to me to be about as comprehensively informative, factual and explanatory as anyone who posts a thread could ask for.

I know you've been doing your own in-depth research on agronomic processes, maintenance and equipment of the old days and that last post showed it. You're the best!

If I have a follow-up question on your post, I can't think of it right now.

Thanks

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

I have been reading some more on this subject this evening and I think I can say with fair certainty that the motive in developing vegetative turf gardens was for selecting the best varieties of turf for the purpose of vegetation propagation.

Quality seed production just could not keep pace as the game grew in popularity.

Now it should be stated that the varieties that were being chosen for evaluation had come from grass that was originally propagated from seed. Over 100 varieties were originally planted in the USDA Gardens at Arlington, and those were narrowed down to 6 or 7. Nurseries would then obtain samples from the best varieties to begin their own fields for commercial spread of the grasses. I'm still not certain if they had to pay any fees for this.

In either case, I think that there was a period, perhaps 15 years, where many greens were propagated vegetatively from grass that was selected at Arlington. The USGA Green Committee was working in cooperation to provide guidelines for sucessful vegetative propagation of greens. Ekwanok and Merion where two of the clubs that provided those original samples.

This is an example of how the American agricultural programs came to the aid of golf in a very big way during its formative years.

[RJ_Daley]

Brad, one thing I have never understood is when they had identified a particular cultivar (say a bent cultivar) how so much seed for sale could be harvested in such a short time.  Could you describe the typical technique that is employed for a process from first identifying a desirable cultivar, harvesting that seed, then propogating it to the extent that there are commercial quantities, and how soon that process can be accomplished?

[Bradley Anderson]

Brad, one thing I have never understood is when they had identified a particular cultivar (say a bent cultivar) how so much seed for sale could be harvested in such a short time.  Could you describe the typical technique that is employed for a process from first identifying a desirable cultivar, harvesting that seed, then propogating it to the extent that there are commercial quantities, and how soon that process can be accomplished?

RJ,

Bentgrass grew as a wild plant that produced a seed head in summer. The best creeping bents came from South Germany. There were other wild bents on the east and west coast of America as well. Between the villagers who went out in to the fields and harvested it, and the end users here in America there were unscrupulous merchants who would add red-top seed to the mix to make it go further. There was no organized system for legally controlling that activity.

So you had seed being collected from variant patches of wild bent, and merchants adding mongrel seed to the bag. There was no specific "variety". If you got lucky you got a mostly untainted mix of seed in the bag, and growing conditions that favored one variety in that mix.

This is why the USDA selected the best varieties from the patches of good grass on greens for the development of turf gardens. The USGA then deceminated guidance on how to culture the best of the varieties from those gardens for vegetative propagation.

The people who advertised seed in the old magazines are still a mystery to me and more research has to be done. But I don't think anyone had a true "variety" until much much later in golf. I think there were people who were better at controlling the process of harvesting the seed and selling it pure. They may have even grown seed harvest patches from their own selections of nursery plots, but I'm guessing that that would have been very difficult to have large enough fields for a significant commercial supply line. Even Reginald Beale refered to his seed as a "mix".

The breeders of turfgrass varieties found that the best place in America to grow fields of grass for seed harvest was out on the northwest where the weather is perfect for that. Those fields are still used today.

Turf breeders develop seed now at the university level, and put out plots all over the country for evaluation, long before they are grown commercially.

What I find interesting about that whole process is none of those test plots are in shade. So virtually all of the bents that have been developed for greens in America were never evaluated for their shade tolerance. There was a disconnect here. The golf courses were planting trees around their greens, and the turf breeders were not considering that the grasses that they were developing would have to survive in low light levels. Thats partly how Poa annua became such a dominate plant on American greens - no one was breeding a shade tolerant bent.

Another interesting thing about this process is the breeders gave us what we wanted in a grass that could be cut well below an 1/8th of an inch. Now architects can't design the kinds of slopes in greens that thye used to because the newer grasses can be grown to produce such a fast playing surface. So greens have lost some of the character that ther originally had.

We can now introduce genes to grass seed. There is a Round-up ready bent that could revolutionize bentgrass. You could basically spray a green with Round-up and reseed it to 100% fine textured bent and have it playable as soon as the grass is re-established. No fumigating would be required. After the Round-up ready bent was up and growing you could periodically spray that green with Round-up and keep all of the other invaders (Poa-annua) out of it so it is 100% pure.

But Poa would find a way around that program eventually. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()